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Politics

Catalexit

135 replies

Spinflight · 30/07/2017 21:54

Quite a bun fight brewing in Spain..

The Catalonian government has passed laws and whatnot to hold a referendum on becoming independent on the 1st of October.

Which is rather awkward, as the Spanish government, the EU and various other bodies say that to do so, even to hold a vote, would be illegal.

Course there's lots of opinion polls, which naturally are all over the place.

The only thing they conclusively show is that the Catalans want a binding vote.

Whilst this is quite rightly an internal matter, were they to vote out ( which incidentally would put them out of the EU) should we support their wishes?

Surely the right to self determination trumps all other concerns, though it has to be said that we would really, really annoy Spain and the EU in doing so.

Interesting times, as ever. What are your thoughts?

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woman11017 · 23/10/2017 16:02

Couple of interesting articles on the influences on separatism in Catalonia and elsewhere and how Assange fits into the English speaking reporting on it.
www.byline.com/column/67/article/1903
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/global-separatist-groups-meet-up-in-moscow-but-no-one-criticises-russia-10510344.html
(2 year old article, but even more relevant now)
Had the upsetting experience of agreeing with George Galloway on talk radio about it, he interviewed Mathew Bennet who's got some great posts on Spain and Catalonia.
drive.google.com/file/d/0ByM82hAkEVNQT0VvM0tHYjNFdDQ/view

SouthLondonDaddy · 23/10/2017 10:09

Well, posting fake news and refusing to admit it fits that definition just perfectly.

Carolinesbeanies · 23/10/2017 09:08

Muppetry, southlondondaddy, is the ability to utterly ignore whats actually happening.

Spin, that made the hairs on my arms stand up. Is it fake? Grin

SouthLondonDaddy · 23/10/2017 07:02

Oh, I see, so those who debunk fake news are muppets. Makes perfect sense.

I guess we'll never know how many people voted because of a bus, but we do know that the bus was a big lie, and that not many in the Brexit campaign deemed it appropriate to point that out.

The Guardian article mentioned some fake news, including that about police breaking a woman's fingers, and recommended caution in interpreting unsubstantiated news. What's to argue? What's to disagree? Maybe non-muppets can enlighten me.

Spinflight · 23/10/2017 03:39

Lol.

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Carolinesbeanies · 22/10/2017 23:47

"I am speechless. You are beyond delusional. You need professional help."

GrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrin

And the Bus!!!! What about the Bus!!!!!! You know you voted because of a bus!!!!!!!

Muppet.

SouthLondonDaddy · 22/10/2017 19:55

@Spinflight, you posted a video titled something like: Spanish police rape woman.
AFAIK there is no proof whatsoever that Spanish police raped a woman during the Catalan referendum; indeed, AFAIK no media has reported this. Care to elaborate?

You also posted about Spanish police allegedly breaking a woman's fingers one by one. I showed you that the same lady went on national TV to explain she had an inflammation but that no, the nasty naught evil fascist oppressive Spanish cops did not break her fingers, let alone "one by one".

Yet you still refuse to admit that you posted fake news???

I am speechless. You are beyond delusional. You need professional help.

Spinflight · 22/10/2017 19:34

Well said Caroline.

Strange that a daddy in south London came out with the fake news line almost a week before the gutter press press started claiming it, no?

Over 1000 injuries, 85% of them being bruises or lesions caused by police batons. A handful on under 11 year olds and a couple of dozen on pensioners.

All inflicted on a peaceful populace by a police force that had no constitutional right to be there. The Catalan's own police force, the Mossos, were illegally put under the command of Madrid.

Bit pointless listing the treaties and fundamental rights abused, as you'd expect the list is a long one and includes swathes of Spain's own constitution.

But the videos I linked to are fake news....

Whilst I thought this dystopian bastardry of a high order I've been forced to change my mind. It's dystopian muppetry of such a low class as to bemuse the senses. Stupid is as stupid does. To not understand or comprehend it is healthy I think, just as to not understand the motivations of evil is.

Whilst the moral and democratic turpitude is obvious, it's worth considering the other side of the coin. The sheer desperation inherent , the furtive scrambling for legitimacy when it has clearly and irrevocably been lost.

Whilst this may outwardly look like a revolt against Spain's latent fascism, it is also a result of the Spanish collectives acceptance of EU policies closely resembling colonialism. When governments act against the people's interests they lose legitimacy, weaken and apparently resort to authoritarian measures.

There is a strong argument that Western Europe's supposed values were an attempt to differentiate between the authoritarian Communist rule in the east of Europe and their own, without much in the way of historical precedent or culture to back them up. Rather than a new shocking development one could see it merely as a reversion to type. Franco, the last dictator to hold power in Western Europe, died on the same day as the leader of the Falange in 1975.

It seems their ghosts were never exorcised.

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Carolinesbeanies · 22/10/2017 09:49

"what some companies have done is to move their registered address away from Catalonia."

Correct Cdtaylornats, and in some cases, that has meant a phone and a desk has been moved from one office in Madrid across a corridor.

Spin is indeed refering to a bank run, and we are indeed watching this space.

Carolinesbeanies · 22/10/2017 09:44

Southlondondaddy, heres the Guardian piece. Ill explain why this, seemingly negligible 3 para item, almost single handedly brings down a continent.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo-injuries-fact-checking

This piece by the Guardian, went viral within seconds. It was picked up by international news agencies within minutes, and various forms of it were then regurgitated across the globe, and is still viral across Twitter. (Guardian editors rubbing their hands with glee) Whats wrong with that, you may say.

Heres the WashPo follow on piece.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/19/how-fake-news-helped-shape-the-catalonia-independence-vote/?utm_term=.b6e06ff5949a

Firstly, the Guardians headline and the content, arent accurate. They arent accurate because the Guardian failed to verify what actual injuries there were. They failed to report on verifiable facts, or make any attempt to verify actual injury numbers, prefering dismissing the entire question of 'violence' as 'possible' fake news. Did some 'false flag' muppet on twitter attempt to undermine and minimise the the actions of the Spanish police? Who knows? Heavens what a suggestion. The Guardian certainly didnt know the source.

"With fake news apparently leaking from every media orifice...." says the Guardian, except theirs one assumes. They have regurgitated a tactic indeed used in the Brexit debate. The side they want to discredit, is fuelled by fake news. Its a purely political stance.

In Brexit, they ignore, that the Government were pro-remain. They sent a leaflet to every household laying out their reasons to support remain and stay in the single market. Every household. The cost of that campaign was millions. The highest, most influential man in the country, the Prime Minister, very publicly stood on a platform of remain.

The media then decide the vote was lost, on 'fake' news. The wonderful, unverifiable ascertion that stupid people believed fake facts, (whatever they may be) 17 million of them. The verifiable truth is, 17 million read the governments leaflet, heard David Cameron, and voted anyway.

I for example, followed events really closely across various media sources, on the day of the Catalan referendum. I never saw any mention or viral promotion of say the bloke in the yellow t-shirt. This supposed 'fake news' event, supposedly impacted the views of international communities. Yellow t-shirt bloke wasnt amongst the thousands of pictures I saw coming out of Catalonia at the time. Who and where, was a 6 year old boy paralysed? Fake news of fake news? Who knows. All I know, is that today the Guardian tell me my view, my personal view, is skewed by something I know I didnt see.

Now multiply my bemusement, by several billion on the planet, who like me, didnt see what the Guardian are reporting on, but did see live events. The Guardian says Im wrong. The Guardian says Im a member of the sheep community, who have formed an inaccurate view. In short, the Guardian says it didnt happen, and my view is the wrong view.

So what if the Guardian had indeed written this piece accurately, without political bias.

"Headline: 3 Spanish Social media items, proven to be false" . Wheres the political statement in that? Wheres the syndicate value in that? There is none. Indeed, the article specifically omits even linking to the offending items. Perhaps because they were in Spanish and I dont speak spanish, so the whole 'youve been led' argument crumbles anyway?

I did witness the following. Live on Sky, rubber projectiles /bullets being fired at citizens turning out to vote (and the Sky reporter). I did witness live assaults by police on unarmed civilians, turning out to vote. The world watched as young, old and disabled, turned out to vote and were met by state police and violence. I did witness the BBCs version of these events as 'a bit of jostling', whilst rubber bullets flew.

Catalonians do indeed have a Catalan TV channel. TV3. To even imply that voters, are motivated by fake news in Catalonia, ignores the verifiable fact that 87% of their TV is Spanish, and 100% of Catalans speak Spanish.

The Guardians desire, to imply, well if there was a bit of violence, it wasnt serious violence, no one really got hurt that much, shifts the worlds view on the media and The Guardian, because quite simply its untrue by omission. We all witnessed what happened on that day.

When you then discuss 'state media', 'state fascism', propoganda, we only have one source that shows us this is now in our town, and at our doors. Guardian articles like this one, that tell me Im the liar, that I didnt see what I saw. This is what is bringing down Europe.

They say its sunny outside on my street. I step out, get rained on and wet, and am then belittled, ridiculed and called out as a liar. The Guardian are calling millions liars, for what reason? The answer can only be a political one.

SouthLondonDaddy · 22/10/2017 09:30

Including the two largest Catalonia banks. Surely an irrelevant detail. But then facts have this nasty habit of getting in the way of ideology...

cdtaylornats · 22/10/2017 09:00

In the spirit of not posting fake news
what some companies have done is to move their registered address away from Catalonia.

SouthLondonDaddy · 22/10/2017 07:38

@Spinflight, what do you mean?

AFAIK what most companies have done is to move their registered address away from Catalonia.

But you are a liar who posts fake news and refuses to admit it, even when confronted with irrefutable evidence, so...

Spinflight · 22/10/2017 01:29

Quite right Caroline.

And the Catalans have a rather amusing, non violent and, if it works, masterful plan.

Organising bank runs. :D

Not just your average Jose withdrawing their monthly wages. Companies, organisations, corporations etc... All acting in concert.

Watch this space, but loving the idea.

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Carolinesbeanies · 21/10/2017 11:01

Spanish prosecutors prepare lawsuit against Puigdemont for 'rebellion'. Up to 30 years imprisonment. Its coming.

www.ccma.cat/324/la-fiscalia-prepara-una-querella-contra-puigdemont-per-rebellio/noticia/2816294/

Carolinesbeanies · 21/10/2017 08:39

cdtaylornats, they are. They are disregarding a proportion of eu citizens, and their fundamental rights, prefering to criminalise them for their desire for a vote, whilst tacitly supporting state police brutality. Sedition for heavens sake. Its still quite unbelievable.

Spin, You could be right with Iceta, but, he is tabling additional powers and self governance, where Rajoy is clearly doing the opposite. Its almost impossible to turn back the clock, but we do know Catalonia is divided over the Independance question. Is Icetas compromise, acceptable to both sides (with of course pardons for Sanchez and Cuixart an added complication now), whereas any other alternative leaves one side the loser?

One thing is for sure, even if Iceta has a plan and does indeed succeed, Catalonia will never forgive the EU. The EU chose Rajoy, and Rajoys tactics to support, over fundamental human rights. All any Catalonian wanted, on both sides of the question, was a legitimate vote.

Spinflight · 20/10/2017 20:34

It seems that invoking 155 was a bluff, one deadline already gone and Saturday's doesn't therefore carry much weight.

Whilst it's more aimed at forcing an autonomous region to provide street lighting and other local council rubbish; any constitutional article explicitly allowing armed force to be used against a population would do so in explicit and legalistic terms, it's use now seems less likely.

Hence instead it appears that they will force Catalonia to conduct fresh elections. Hence Mr Iceta in the article you linked to probably had a sneek peek of their plans Caroline. Which indicates to me that their new strategy will be covertly and overtly trying to help him win.

Smear the current Catalonian government, restrict their access to the media, pour money into Iceta's campaign, intimidate, coerce.... Think our referendum campaign with added repression, gagging and violence.

Whilst unconstitutional I'm not completely convinced that the Catalans will reject this notion. They can treat it as a referendum.

Interesting bit of political opportunism but... Still not seeing the advantage.

Which worries me.

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cdtaylornats · 20/10/2017 16:38

It has finally shown that the EU is an organisation of states. The EU is willfully ignoring the democratic wishes of millions of Catalans who are also EU citizens.

SouthLondonDaddy · 20/10/2017 11:21

@Spinflight, is it against your religion to admit that you posted fake news? You do realise that you have no credibility whatsoever if you first post fake news, then refuse to acknowledge it, don't you?

SouthLondonDaddy · 20/10/2017 11:20

"The Guardian excelled themselves yesterday, with a 'Catalonia's in this position because of Catalan media propoganda' piece, utterly ignoring the fact Catalans speak Spanish (those that speak Catalan are bi-lingual"

Exactly what article were you referring to? And what does the fact that Catalans are bilingual have to do with anything? AFAIK no one denies that Catalans speak Spanish, too; many can speak it but refuse to, but that's another story.

Carolinesbeanies · 19/10/2017 11:07

PrivateEye this this week.........

Rajoy has utterly screwed Spain and put them back 40 years. And I say that in a considered and non-emotive manner.

Catalexit
Carolinesbeanies · 19/10/2017 07:19

"It's an interesting "look at me" ..." It is Spin, but its concilliatory in tone, and as the deadline approaches, the only concilliatory noise Ive read with 'give' to both sides, coming from any quater. Everywhere else, battlelines are drawn. (Well done Slovenia for stating the obvious, of course ALL EU states would recognise an Independant Catalonia, GDP 50% higher than Greece, its ridiculous politicking that TMs doing, for no benefit whatsoever).

The Guardian excelled themselves yesterday, with a 'Catalonia's in this position because of Catalan media propoganda' piece, utterly ignoring the fact Catalans speak Spanish (those that speak Catalan are bi-lingual), and TV3 account for around 13% of the TV, the rest is Spanish TV. Its the whole, ignore the facts, spin the agenda reporting in MSM thats been utterly counter productive......again.

Anyway, Rajoys new nuclear deadline 10am today, Amnesty International are calling for the release of Sanchez and Cuixart and the International legal community are gathering. One thing is absolutely certain, this isnt a "domestic matter for Spain". The world watches Mr Rajoy.

Spinflight · 18/10/2017 17:55

It's an interesting "look at me" from the leader of a party in terminal decline Caroline, and one gets the sense that he expects a political advantage.

He's better placed to judge than I but I can't see it. I doubt Rajoy and co would jump for joy at the prospect of Catalan elections as it would merely be treated as an actual referendum. At least 48% supported the separatist party last time around, though how many supported their aims but not their other policies is unclear.

Seems to be the rough equivalent of the lib dems asking for a second referendum in the international press. Good for personal exposure but somewhat devoid of anything else.

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Carolinesbeanies · 18/10/2017 08:07

Spin, theres some merit in this Op Ed this morning. Im still ruminating. The federal states of Spain?

www.nytimes.com/2017/10/18/opinion/roadmap-catalonia.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Carolinesbeanies · 18/10/2017 07:46

Steady Spin, we all know this bloke is a far greater risk to Spanish peace, he may roll over your toe or something........

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