Unwritten social codes in England

An American colleague and I recently discussed how bewildering the English class system is to us since it based on social rather than economic capital and often what would be considered glamorous in other cultures is looked down upon as gauche here.

Yes, it is about social capital. You can't buy that. So expending money on trying to achieve 'glamour' is never going to fool anyone. It is too try-hard or gauche.

There is a very famous example of snobbery regarding trying to buy your way into a different class. Michael Hesseltine was a Conservative politician: a self-made man (i.e. MC) who had aspirations, including designs on being Prime Minister. The powers that be in the party (UC) weren't keen on him and he was famously decried with the cutting remark - "The trouble with Michael is that he had to buy all his furniture." (i.e. he didn't inherit)
Margaret Thatcher was also MC but made no pretensions to be anything else, so was acceptable.

There is a much-loved comedy sketch from the Sixties about knowing your place . (ignore the second sketch) Sorry about the quality of the sound, I couldn't find a better one. It's them, not your computer.

One of my grandmothers was wc, the other is mc. Neither would be direct about anything as they perceived directness as confrontational. I don't think class has much to do with it.

Ha, Morris. I'm not criticising, merely observing. I silently seethe and passive aggressive with the best of them, which is probably why I loved living there so much.

We're much the same here, to be fair - you'd be hard pushed to get anyone even vaguely approaching middle class to come out and say something directly (say, if someone was annoying or upsetting them). Men maybe more likely to.

Being autistic I don't understand a lot of the British social etiquette anyway. I miss hints and I'm very direct. I'm not rude though, in fact I'm told I'm very polite!

Yes, second that with the public schools. The Public Schools Act schools are called 'public schools', and there are only nine of them. The rest are private schools.

The British are downright notorious for never coming out and saying what they mean. They will imply things, and be passive aggressive - fine if you're able to pick up on this, not so good if you're no good at reading between the lines.

We are polite. It is not polite to criticise or carp or complain. So we hint, heavily.
The French can come straight out and say what they mean but we think that they are unbelievable rude. (Cringes at criticising others, but they are foreign so it's OK )

Morris

Interesting discussion.

I think class is so ingrained that being considered anything other than the class you were born into is almost impossible.

I'm thoroughly WC however my earnings, values and some of the things I do could land me in the middle classes, but to the middle classes I will always be WC. Same if I became the richest person in the word tomorrow and had a battered car full of dog fur and muddy wellies would still never be accepted as UC.

Thankfully I dont give a damn what class I am or what other people perceive me to be.

MorrisZap

Only the MC worry about whether they are MC or not (or so i've read!).

People say they arn't afected by class but then obsess over markers such as milk or hot water first when pouring tea, the pronunciation of scone (like 'gone' or like 'stone'), whether Jaffacakes are a biscuit or a cake. A lot of it is a load of old horse shit

I think that for the last 10 years, at least, it has been 'cool' to be thick and 'uncool' to be intelligent. I like knowledge - random facts about orcas, podenco dogs, Neptune, Joan Miro (i just faked one for my son's room lolz!), Catalan Christmas traditions... I don't shout about them but i'm great at writing quizzes!

Sorry, got off track. But great thread!

I don't think the British are passive aggressive at all. Unlike some people.

Hmmm...

My parents are not English, neither am I, I moved here when I was 4, have a British accent (generic south).

I think I get the British class system, but I'm never certain. According to the BBC class calculator I am "established middle class" despite not owning my own home. Actually I've changed my mind. I don't get it at all!

"The British are downright notorious for never coming out and saying what they mean. They will imply things, and be passive aggressive - fine if you're able to pick up on this, not so good if you're no good at reading between the lines."

I think this is true, my FiL is a master at seething and letting you know with subtle body language just how very displeased he is. Instead of loud fishwife type of discussions MC people let you feel their angry energy, I find it quite awful tbh.

Public schools are specific schools - eton, Harrow etc
Private schools are all the rest. Nothing to do with class other than that if you have a title you might find you have an edge getting your kid into a public school

I loved that book too, especially the stuff about introductions, i.e. not asking people what their name is directly, not being allowed to say what you do for a living but being allowed to give hints until someone guesses it - in my experience that is spot on even though it sounds ridiculous.

One thing I find is that people often are unclear on what constitutes middle class, as it is a very wide group. Some things people say are middle class - someone upthread said "scruffy" house rather than immaculate - might be true for Jilly Cooper middle class but not Hyacinth Bucket middle class.

I recently overheard someone say she would feel uncomfortable moving to the new build estate (privately owned not council) in her town.

She said it would be too posh for her (in a lower mc job, above average salary).

Whereas others I know wouldn't live in new houses as they are 'lower class'.

Personally I think trainers are for the gym and feel odd if I wear them not exercising.

Independent schools are called private by mc people and public by uc people.

If uc people can't cope with their dcs they pay to send them to boarding school. If wc people can't cope with their dcs the state pays to send them to residential schools (which cost more than boarding).

Mc people have dusty bookshelves. Wc people have spotless minimalist homes.

BBC is mc, ITV wc.

Mc people don't watch soaps, towie, talent shows or Jeremy Kyle.

Mc kids expect to go to uni. Wc kids aspire to go.

Wc holidays are to haven/butlins turkey or lanzarote.

Mc pay more to go to Cornwall.

Wc meals are based around the carb-meals out are to wetherspoons.

Mc meals are based on the protein- meals out are to places that charge extra for carbs and veg.

Mc voted remain so their dcs can work abroad.

Wc voted leave so their dcs can work.

(Bit of oversimplification with these I know!)

People using the phrase "at the minute" vs. "at the moment".

The former is considered WC.

Grayson Perry's great on this subject, try watching this series - www.channel4.com/programmes/in-the-best-possible-taste-grayson-perry

One set of parents bafflingly say 'just going through' and the other 'pennying' for using the loo.

Why use one layer of euphemism when two will do?

British people are very assertive, especially the women, compared to say Canadian women

Another one somewhat open-mouthed at this!

The British are downright notorious for never coming out and saying what they mean. They will imply things, and be passive aggressive - fine if you're able to pick up on this, not so good if you're no good at reading between the lines.

British people - women especially - will seethe silently, rather than come out and address something (you see it on here all the time), and will freeze a person out rather than discuss an issue.

Obviously this is a mass generalisation - but then so is everything on this thread!

I'm Scottish. I've genuinely never noticed lavatory/toilet etc as a class thing, I don't know who says what.

But if you call your mum's mum Nana, you're working class.

anti that's interesting.
I've asked my MIL where she would put my dcs (similar position than you) and she said that they were 'international'

Clearly they've absorbed some British ways but also so many non British ways that it's still impossible to put them in a category!

All sorts of little giveaways that are only really understood by the UMC/UC. Everything from wedding invitations to the 'T'word (that is considered worse than the 'C'word). The type of cuff on a man's shirt, the colour your house is painted, the type of dog you own, your jewellery and make up, your shoes, whether you eat prawns and fruit with cutlery, the school you went to, the regiment you served in, the holidays you choose, your abilities at tennis/riding/ hockey/rugby/ fencing. There are so many indicators.

"One things that stands out for me about the MC is they tend to have a very binary view of things - there is right way to do something and everything else is just wrong, hence you can tell when you are in a predominately MC area because everything looks the same . WC and UC seem far morE laid back

Actually thanks for that. This has been my experience where I live and you've just explained why I've never 'fitted in'.

Being mc, i sometimes think i love my dc more for what they could be in the future than for what they are now .