Genuine question for Tory voters

'Hopefully ds will also go' but what if he doesn't. Would you be happy with the alternative?

I think the social mix you currently get in state schools is pretty diverse, although I agree that there are some middle class areas which dominate one school.

The situation will still be unfair because more well off patents will simply pay for their children to have coaching so they have more chance of getting into the grammar school.

That may be so Rufus but in many places (especially in London) that is the main cause of the shortage. I have read also read on here about MN'ers facing space problems in other (mainly city/metropolitan) areas.

I really admire TM for championing grammars and I went to one myself. Hopefully DS will also go as we have them here too. The standard of education is very, very good. It seems better to me (certainly no less fair) to select on ability rather than have the present system which is effectively selection according to whether your parents can afford to buy in the catchment. Unintended consequences again.

It seems to me that large class sizes are more to do with fewer forms per year. When I was at primary school the class sizes were about 18-20 but there were three forms per year. Now there is often two or even one form per year with a larger class. The reason is clearly that having three forms requires the recruitment of more staff.

The other concern, of course is that Theresa May wants to return to the grammar school system. This is not a progressive move at all.

No school is going to want to be what used to be a secondary modern. And so if our kids are not clever enough to pass the 11+ they will end up in the less desirable schools.

young

I am sure that it will please you to know that in our area large class sizes are nothing whatsoever to do with immigration

In the absence of adequate school places Rufus it's probably best not to elect Corbyn who refuses to be drawn on immigration targets eh? Unless we want to have (to quote a Labour minister at the time) "our faces rubbed in diversity" again. That little social experiment hasn't ended well for anyone except the middle classes.

And as for progressive policies, imo increasing the threshold at which income tax is payable is the best possible way to help low earners. As far as I know, it's only the Tories who have this as a policy. (Happy to be corrected if not).

There is a secondary school in my area which has always been big but before I was born the class sizes were 40plus. It was say that if you were an average student then you could go through the entire school not really noticed by anyone.

I cannot believe that people are so dismissive about the prospect of this becoming widespread.

I agree lottie

Obviously class sizes make a massive difference

And most primary schools barely have the room for the 30+ children they have at the moment let along the extra 10 which will cause no problem at all

Schools are struggling

It's not about 'flinging money'. Fewer staff in a school = less input for each child. That's a fact you cannot deny. You don't pay the staff, you don't have the staff.

It's not comparable with paying managers in public sector jobs a big salary. In a school the staff have hands on work with the children. Diminished support for the children will result in a lower standard of education.

I agree with young that it's not always about flinging money at things to improve them.

I am not too worried about class sizes round here as the schools are pretty well-run

And how long will that last with heads and teachers quitting in droves?

Not suggesting that you're a 'Daily Mail poster girl' - just mentioning that paper in light of your raising the issue of bias in the press by comparing the Guardian to Pravda.

I don't know how the systems in France or Germany work.

I'm not completely closed to new ideas but I do think that the Conservative party is about looking out for the richest few. I have never seen any evidence of progressive policies from them.

I find it interesting that my parents always voted for Thatchers administration when they had a more narrow outlook on life. Now that they have a disabled granddaughter their views have changed considerably.

Lottie do you think people die for lack of healthcare in France or Germany (fully insured system)? Are we so parochial in our outlook that we think there is us and the USA and that's it? Because there are many different alternatives to deliver healthcare of which the US system is one. The left would have us believe those are the only options when that is palpable bollocks.

And finding the Guardian a tad left wing does not make me a Daily Mail poster girl. What an absolute non sequitur.

Sorry to comment on a post that was made a long while back (I've only just seen this thread), but hahaha at comparing the Guardian to Pravda.

If you want to refer to bias in the press, I have to ask if you've glanced at the Daily Mail recently?

There is plenty of evidence that whether a class has 30 or 40 pupils makes no difference to education outcomes

This is obvious bollocks.

If it needs replacing with something better then what would that be?

What about people who can't afford healthcare or don't have it given to them via their jobs?

In the US if you have a baby who needs SCBU care then that can potentially run up a bill of £1 million.

Carol - where is your evidence that 15 or less is ideal? On threads where people who use private schools talk about ideal class sizes they usually say 20 is ideal.

Fewer teaching staff per child = less input for each child. It's not rocket science. And when there are children with SEN in these classes then it's even more of a problem since no government has ever wanted to meet their needs.

My DH works for the NHS and agrees with your friends. It's a basket case. It needs replacing with something better imo so it does not affect my vote either way. I prefer the French system anyway. I just don't share your faith that the Tories will actually do anything so drastic because the NHS is treated like a religion by so many people. Wrongly, imo.

I can't really comment on schools as I said earlier. Particularly SN as I have no experience of SN or TA's etc. I do think that education is about more than money - individuals need grit and determination to succeed and DC are never too young to learn this. I appreciate that's a bit too "tiger mom" for some, but that is my view.

There is plenty of evidence that whether a class has 30 or 40 pupils makes no difference to education outcomes. The benefits come at class sizes of 15 or less and the problems at 45 or more. 30 is not a number based on any evidence at all.
The only party which has ever introduced charges for healthcare since 1945 are Labour (opticians, dentists and prescriptions). Over 50% of NHS spending goes to private companies since its very inception.

Roll your eyes all you like - it's happening. I think this is the problem. People have a head in sand attitude 'oh well it's always been there and it always will'. If you think the Tories are pro-NHS then you need to actually look at what they are doing. What they want is for the NHS to fail, they will then say it needs to end. I have quite a few friends who work within the NHS. They all say the situation is the worst it ever has been.

It's also ridiculous to say that because you got a law degree in adverse conditions then everyone else can. This is sadly a typical Tory view - I was fine so everyone else can be. I have two children in MS schools - one is a very academic straight A student and the other less so. The younger one needs TA support. Don't forget that children with SEN are also mainstreamed these days. They also need more support.

right now it's being sold to Virgin Health Care

Yes, you're right. The entire NHS is being flogged to Branson.

I agree that the NHS is shonky and that is why I would prefer a social insurance system like in France. If Tory policy helps to achieve that, I am all in favor. At the moment, the Tories are still pro-NHS (which makes a mockery of all the teeth gnashing on here really) albeit with funding at a sustainable level. I don't care if I have to co-pay or who provides the care as long as it is not shit (like now) and nobody goes without.

As for schools, my class of 35 was taught in a portakabin at a state school and I ended up with a first in law. I am not too worried about class sizes round here as the schools are pretty well-run (and house values have gone up as a result - another Labour triumph for the masses!) Again, it's about so much more than flinging cash at schools.

A coalition would be a disaster in view of Brexit. If ever we needed decisive leadership and a lean parliament, it's now.

Effic No offence taken I just wanted to put an alternative viewpoint. I think we are in quite strange times, politically. Two years ago I never would have believed that I would be voting Tory and that I would be so thoroughly disillusioned with the Labour party. A few months ago many people were predicting the end of the Labour party and I was kind of hoping that something a bit more progressive and genuinely liberal (ie without the identity politics nonsense and with a bit of class politics) but heyho, it seems everyone has forgotten about that now. It will be interesting times if Labour do win (I don't think they will) to see all the infighting and battles between the majority of the MPs, the membership, Momentum and Corbyn playing out whilst they are trying to run the country and lead us out of the EU

Make*

When have I said that JC would be able to she everything ok? If you read my posts I've said we need a coalition rather than any one of the parties currently on offer.