You should be ashamed of yourself if you vote Tory and…

Life time labour voter voting this election for conservatives because of Brexit...i get it

Life time labour voter voting this election for conservatives because they are disallusioned with labour policies or now prefer conservative policies or their circumstances have changed....i get it

I honestly don't understand why an apparently life time labour voter who has no problem with the party and its policies would jump all the way to the right without popping by lib dem or green , even if they dont like the labour leader

I honestly thought we were supposed to vote for the party and its policies not its leader...if it is just the leader then i have no idea who to vote for, i dont think i like any of them

I will admit i havent checked the manifestos recently so maybe labour and tory policies are more similar now

Well, because what I've been reading in the Guardian, Independent, New Statesman and elsewhere from ppl on the left, not it's true from official Labour party sources, (and the same has been said by a few pp on this thread) is that working people should not be empowered to make political decisions because they make the wrong ones - mainly re Brexit. I have read almost nothing about empowering ppl but endless reams about how ppl have been duped, are stupid, are un-educated, are racist, don't understand the issues or reality, shouldn't have been given the chance to vote on EU membership etc, etc. It is as if the left are interested in empowering only as far as ppl want the "right" outcome. As soon as there is a difference, that all seems to have gone out the window. Which is not really about empowerment.

I meant now is not the time to demand it. I don't think there is time or money to get close to the Tory level of sophistication of winning votes before the GE.

Wrongtrouser I would say that's still the case. What makes you think it isn't?

As for ideology, it's as I say diffuse but my own take on it is that Labour is about giving a voice to the people who are the wealth creators rather than the wealth owners, to ensure a fair wage and dignity for the working person and for collective endeavour to provide a democratic, fair society that ensures minimum standards of living such as shelter, healthcare and education together with true equality of opportunity.

Other people might think differently though!

I think that Labour would do well to trumpet their achievements in this area btw - for eg we'd have no NHS or paid leave if it wasn't for Labour.

Actually I think that Labour should be asking itself exactly that. The wider party has always been ragtag and radical but the PLP came into existence to represent the views of workers in Parliament. If they can't get elected, then they have failed in that. God knows I'm no fan of Blair but he absolutely understood this.

That may be true but I am not sure that now is the time

I really couldn't disagree more. I think it's now or never really.

GetIn Could you explain some of the ideology to me? I always thought the Labour party stood for empowerment of the working man and woman, but clearly that is no longer the case.

Labour should be asking itself why it isn't convincing enough people. That may be true but I am not sure that now is the time.

To those who are left but loudly criticising and refusing to vote for Corbyn, you may not be voting Tory but you are making their win more inevitable.

Anyway, Tories are always going to be better at persuading people to vote for them because that's all their campaigns are about - finding ways of getting votes in order to entrench privilege.

Labour, being a party of workers' representation and also having an ideology, is always going to be more diffuse and crucially as we are seeing with Corbyn can get so caught up in all that that the battle for hearts and minds gets a bit of a swerve.

So, given you don't think much of the Tories could you explain why you think people should vote Labour at the moment? I want Brexit sorted out, and no more flim flam about not respecting the referendum result. We're not going to get that from Labour, are we? They are all over the place, saying one thing one day, different the next. People like AC Grayling are telling people to vote LD or Labour tactically to stop Brexit. That's not going to persuade any leave voters to trust Labour, is it? And I'm afraid my overriding feeling is that a huge proportion of ppl on the left have spent the last year or so telling me I am some sort of deplorable. It's very hard to feel that these same people can now represent me and govern the country in the way I and people like me want. My instincts are on the left but I think Corbyn is a bit of a shower whilst the parliamentary labour party and those who have tried to get rid if him are manipulative, unpleasant and undemocratic. There seems little of appeal.

Yeah, they created this narrative that striking workers meant the end of civilisation and also that what the workers were about was said end of civilisation which interestingly persists to this day.

You see this is what scares the life out of me as a Labour voter all my life . And who has done my time knocking on doors and delivering leaflets. How do those who support corbyn think elections are won. They are won by converting Tories to Labour. So you can call people who vote tory shameful all you like but guess what you need them, its a bugger isn't it.
The political naivety of it.

Rubbish piled high in the streets. Bodies not buried. Hard to get people to vote for the party that let that happen on their watch.
I didn't vote Thatcher but I can't be snarky about those that did.
It was only Smith and then Blair that undid that damage. The stupid war fucked all that up making them hard to trust again. But Corbyn is not the answer.

To paraphrase Bevan, the reason Thatcher got elected and the reason that bumclowns May & Co will get elected is the same - because the Tories are past masters of persuading poverty to keep wealth in power.
I was at university when Thatcher was elected. I didn't vote for her. One of my fellow students did. She said 'Things can't go on the way they are'. I was shocked. But we had just had The Winter of Discontent.
Rubbish piled high in the streets.

To paraphrase Bevan, the reason Thatcher got elected and the reason that bumclowns May & Co will get elected is the same - because the Tories are past masters of persuading poverty to keep wealth in power.

Im not being dismissive.

I am thinking they have no principles.

HtH.

Monkey, how do you think Thatcher got elected? She was more convincing than Labour after the winter of discontent. I suspect some of those voters might have been (whisper it) traditional Labour voters.
Being dismissive of people because they vote Tory (even if I am not one of them) misses the point.
Labour should be asking itself why it isn't convincing enough people.

Radishal Latest ICM poll is showing 12% of those who voted Labour in 2015 are planning to vote Tory. I have no idea how this compares to a usual election though - there are always floating voters. Seems high though.

Wrong..thanks. that was also a x post. I was addressing radishul.

I agree with you. I'm even being attacked for views i dont hold .

WtF

So why are YOU taking offence at my view on them if it isnt you? I am aware its their right and i have my right to have my opinion on them.

You're sounding a wee bit deranged for laying into me about something i have never said and dont even think.

Please.go away and direct your anger at someone who has actually said the thing that has enraged you, not someone who MAY think it in your mind.

My last post was a x post with you Monkey, I wasn't meaning to be arsy.

I think we agree - name-calling and insulting on all sides is not good. It does all get a bit heated at times which is really not good.

Come the GE result, people can raise concerns that it was the wrong result and like the result for Brexit complain loudly about it plus try to get the result overturned.

Democracy is a right pain at times, should not be allowed

The number of people who have said they always vote Labour but are voting Tory this time is pretty small as fad as MN posts are concerned.
You know they have a right to, don't you?

I said people who SAY they are voting Tory because they dont like Corbyn, but claim to be Labour supporters, are appalling.

If that is not you, then i didnt mean you.

Wrong. I wont bring other threads up here but there is another ine where i have about 5 Tories laying into me. It gets confusing

Especially when people lay into me for things i havent even said but MIGHT think.

And so I am voting Tory because I won't vote for Corbyn? More idiotic nonsense.

So i got my threads mixed up.

I am on another thread which is chock full of people sneering at Labour voters.

I held my hands up to getting threads confused..

So sue me. Busy day here