You should be ashamed of yourself if you vote Tory and…

Off to spend time doing something more enjoyable than bickering all day.

Have fun

Oh whatever.

Actually I do agree that PFI is a disaster and one of the worst examples of bent cronyism. Also that Labour needs to get their act in gear. But there is no other party that represents working people - not just in their policies but in their constitution and membership. No other party can you give your vote to and have that vote empower shop stewards and union reps and people fighting tooth and nail - for no money - for the workers who vote them to speak for them.

And there was silly old me thinking that we were on a time of huge political upheaval and that the left/Labour somehow aren't able to provide a meaningful (as in with any realistic chance of even forming a decent sized opposition, never mind winning) left-wing political choice. How silly of me - it's obvs all hunky-dory in Labourland and not complicated and definitely not in need of some fresh thinking. It's just that anyone who doesn't want to vote for them at the moment is rightwing. So simple.

I'll just go and do my knitting.

Labour are the creators of the NHS. Without Labour there would be no NHS.

See, this is the problem with some of the Labour supporters' stances-it doesn't matter that Labour created it (and they are bloody wonderful for doing so) if they continue to write blank cheques when they are in control of it. The issue I referred to and the one GinnyBaker talked about, always gets brushed under the carpet by some Labour supporters because "it's ok, at least they had good intentions".

I am not going to vote Tory but it really annoys me that some people blindly just follow an ideology/idea without actually digging further. The billions being paid out in contracts gone wrong have had nothing to do with the Tories but because people 'feel' the pinch during their tenure, they get the blame.

N:B I am only referring to the issue I discussed uphread; I know full well the Tories have fucked things up too. However, recent performance from the last 20 years from Labour has been pretty piss poor in a lot of areas remember that the first thing Tony Blair did when he came to power back in 1997 was to cut single parent benefit. All conveniently forgotten, eh!?

Am a bit too busy with RL.

And..you cant have left wing values and be a Tory voter

Well you are just awesome then Wrong.

As someone disabled and having to use the NHS more and more I'm extremely concerned how theGE result will directly affect me. I'll be voting Labour, not because of Corbyn, but because my local (labour) MP does a great job supporting the area.

Labour are the creators of the NHS. Without Labour there would be no NHS.

If I was a Labour supporter who really wanted to see a good result for the Labour party at they GE, I would be more concerned about trying to understand what is motivating ex-Labour voters to consider voting Tory (a decision that I can't imagine many will be taking lightly) than with trying to tell them what I think is motivating them or to tell them that they do not really have left wing values

HTHATH

For i was talking about Labour voters who turn Tory.

If you have left wing principles you would never vote for this Government, you'd find another alternative.

I am thinking they have no principles.

I have principles hence I won't vote Labour whilst Corbyn is leader.

HTH

GinnyBaker

I totally agree with you. And don't forget the millions the NHS are still having to pay to contractors for a non-existent NHS Centralised Database because they fucked up on the contracts nearly 10 years later; the American companies that they employed are rubbing their hands in glee over excessive payments made for a product they never delivered because they weren't made to sign watertight contracts, on a product that had only been tested in America and who had no understanding of our NHS systems.

Oh yes, since when are Labour the saviours of the NHS?!?

And also at least my grandaddy understood that meddling without knowledge was harmful, rather than setting themselves up as saints in some pseudo wank version of colonialism and calling themselves enlightened.

Right. So you think that Chloe on her gap year is going to solve all the problems associated with global inequality, despite the fact that she has none of the skills or knowledge (ie construction, tendering, sustainability) needed in order to build an orphanage or whatever the fuck else she's up to and also despite the fact that her poverty tourism has directly come about as a result of said global inequality? At least the people born into poor countries leave a small footprint.

fucking Chloe on her gap yah

It's exactly that kind of vile statement that makes me despair of the left - so much class hatred.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=0M91g4OlGEY

Oh and people have always read up on the wider world. My grandaddy left school at 14 but he read all the classic literature texts and even though he never spent a night away from home he took the time to read about other cultures in encyclopaedia etc which arguably gave him a clearer view than fucking Chloe on her gap yah banging on about how poor people are so happy and life affirming.

People have always been aspirational. I agree that class distinctions are perhaps harder to spot now (probably why the tories will get in forever) but regardless of how many degrees a person has due to the expansion of higher education many are still on zero hours (ie the new version of the van at the end of the street) contracts and lots of white collar jobs are now minimum wage. The details have changed but the issues haven't.

As for home ownership, it's at the lowest level since the 70s and actually we are moving back to being a rentier economy except without the protections (rent controls and security of tenure) that there was in Bevan's time.

People don't see this, largely because Labour isn't pointing it out to them. It's frustrating.

More people care about who can make a proper fist of the economy (or look less bad than the others). This election is about Brexit and nothing else. Don't even know where JC is on that.

People just don't think along class lines in the way they did in Bevan's time. It is foolish to think they do.
More people own homes, have degrees, travel abroad, read up on the wider world. Trying to shove people back into a box marked "class" is a waste of time.

And so again I direct you to Bevan. There is a long and unglorious history of people voting for parties that are not in their best interests, because due to messages about aspiration/freedom they think they can have a slice of the pie. I'd never call someone thick for doing so though they've just hitched their cart to a different horse.

Get, Labour can't deliver with Corbyn. It's as simple as that. I don't think people are stupid and that is why I am certain that Labour won't win.
All the lovely messages about Labour 's history are what got Blair elected. That and being a centrist that seemed more trustworthy with the economy.