Trump vs Clinton Round 3. Probably the biggest debate ever.

Lweji: I'm not voting myself, and have said I wouldn't vote for either. But there's no way I'd vote for Hillary. Obviously I would agree that neither candidate is 'above reproach' and on these threads I've used much stronger terms about Donald Trump than that! But I agree wholeheartedly (yes, I think it's wholeheartedly) with Claig's view that it is a dangerous time in terms of individual freedoms and the last thing we need is more of the establishment same. I believe there is a racism, venality and misogyny in her that needs dependence from citizens and division among them. I don't believe in open borders; I believe in healthy relationships and movement between strong nation states. I think the time has come to stand up for the open, friendly, healthy nation state standing up for the principles of western enlightenment and democracy. I think with Clinton, we will go backwards.

I kind of know what you'll say - probably you'll fire back exactly the same about Donald Trump. The only thing I would say to that is, I feel like I've seen both sides. I was a true supporter of Bill Clinton and then of Tony Blair. I've been a left-wing activist, I've marched and been on demonstrations. And I think I'm arguing now for the same thing I marched for then: that is, individual freedom and opportunity in a society governed by the principles of mutual consent and honesty. To me it feels like, once the veil has been lifted, it can't be lowered again. I can't 'unknow' or 'unsee' what I know and see.

I truly believe that with the exception of some posters who are just sneering and using nasty language, most people on both sides of the thread are aiming for the same thing. I don't impute to Clinton supporters, a desire to maintain a corrupt establishment and place the boot ever firmly in the face of a resisting populace. We want the same things, but we see different roads towards them. I've said the same thing about Brexit: I think most Remainers (I mean ordinary people, not the fucking Goldman Sachs of the world) want the same as me - but we see different paths towards the same goal.

Genuine question - how concerning is this to people who think that Hillary deserves the job? MN is not behaving so I can't link the article. Apologies for c & p:

"In an effort to prevent foreign governments, organizations, and individuals from influencing the policy decisions of American national leaders, campaign-finance laws prohibit U.S. political figures from accepting money from foreign sources. But as the Washington Post noted in February 2015, the Bill, Hillary, & Chelsea Clinton Foundation “has given donors a way to potentially gain favor with the Clintons outside the traditional political [donation] limits.”

As of February 2015, foreign sources accounted for about one-third of all donors who had given the Clinton Foundation more than $1 million, and over half of those who had contributed more than $5 million. Foreign donors that gave money to the Foundation included: Hezbollah supporter Issam Fares, who once served as deputy prime minister of Lebanon; the Dubai Foundation, which also gave money to the families of Palestinian terrorists killed in action; the royal family of the United Arab Emirates; a Dubai-based company that promotes Sharia Law; a privately-held Chinese construction and trade conglomerate headed by a delegate of the Chinese parliament; and the governments of Saudi Arabia, Brunei, the United Arab Emirates, and Qatar.

Even during Clinton's tenure (2009-13) as secretary of state, the Clinton Foundation received millions of dollars in donations from seven foreign governments.

In August 2016, the Associated Press reported that 85 of Hillary Clinton's 154 scheduled meetings and phone calls with non-governmental personnel during her time at the State Department were with donors who gave $156 million to the Clinton Foundation. The AP report also revealed that the Clinton Foundation had received $170 million in donations from at least 16 foreign governments whose representatives met personally with Mrs. Clinton.

In May 2015, the International Business Times reported that the Clinton State Department had approved billions of dollars in arms deals with governments that donated to the Clinton Foundation, including governments that were infamous for their appalling human-rights records.

WW, I don't think Hillary is above reproach. I'd be surprised if any politician after a few decades of service in the US was beyond reproach.

But for every accusation that you have just listed, check what there is on Trump.
Either vote for none of them, or for Hillary. Because when you discount all equivalent sins, you are still left with a huge list on Trump's side. Most of all his character.

I thought Trump was bad when this all started, but it has come to be much worse than I expected.

comey

I read that FBI staffers are furious at comfy for spiffing the Hillary case.

excellent bolding there Winchester

Gumpendorf: but what do you have to say about what he said? It's not enough to say he's on Trumps side, because that doesn't mean everything he says is wrong.

These parts:

they ignore an avalanche of hard evidence about corruption, pay to play, political favoritism emanating out of Hillary Clinton’s years as secretary of state. We found out this week, that while she was secretary of state, her officials in that department actually directed reconstruction contracts in Haiti to friends of the Clinton. this is precisely the kind of pay to play politics she said wasn’t happening as their foundation accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign governments.”

“Just this morning The New York Times is reporting that in exchange for a five-minute meeting, the government of Qatar pledged $1 million to the Clinton Foundation. *

I mean say, just those bits. What would you say about those bits?

Trump lacks policies
He doesn't need policies. He has advisers to work those out for him. All Trump cares about is taking back America from the establishment
Trump is a poor orator/ debater
Trump is a man of the people. He says what he thinks. He doesn't care what the media / establishment think.
Trump is a serial abuser of women
Aww c'mon, Trump was just being one of the boys. It's all lies anyway and an establishment conspiracy.
Trump will shock the world with his latest announcement
No he doesn't - just more ego driven ill informed twaddle.

trump is the ideal candidate for people who can't or won't think for themselves; who secretly enjoy cheering on the playground bully, and who can't articulate their views coherently. And for those who can, he's very easy to defend - on his own terms. Always on his own terms. It doesn't make it right though.

Thus despite his immense wealth and power, he becomes a man of the people.

Dear Christ.

And if he loses to a sassy intellectual middle aged woman?

That'll be an establishment conspiracy too, obviously.

Also a fact check (look at the actual words and facts before discounting the source) on the 12 year old case and claims.

Anyone with an interest on the case should read it.

While what Bill Maher says here is very true:
A Bone to Pick with Undecided Voters

Food for thought.

This is Pence, so you can't get more biased than this

Exactly WW. It's biased propaganda. A confectionery of created outrage.

It's hugely ironical that Hillary is now tainted with the establishment, given Bill's presidency was consistently attacked by the Washington establishment who couldn't handle the Arkansas President. I suspect Trump would quickly start to enjoy the Washington/establishment flattery if the US is stupid enough to elect him.

Sadted: She did: but we've had the conversation already and shown that to be the case, so we don't need to rehash it.

SadTed, you are acting all offended on behalf of women and girls, yet you use a gendered insult and would rather the misogynist Trump won over Hillary? You are using the case of the 12 year old abuse victim for your own agenda and I think that is sickening.

Trump doesn't yet know the detail, but he is a businessman, he will solve whatever arises

The way he did with the businesses that went bankrupt? No thanks.

Zuleika - ssshhhh

Not going to happen, WW.

Nope Hillary is unhinged, what kinda sick bastard gets a paedo of the hook for the rape of a 12 year old girl and laughs about it

She didn't. But we've had that discussion at length elsewhere, so please let's not repeat it.

This is Pence, so you can't get more biased than this. But worth a read on “an avalanche of hard evidence about corruption, pay to play, political favouritism emanating out of Hillary Clinton’s years as secretary of state.”

Pence said, ere we are in an election of such enormous magnitude in the life of this nation, and once again, the media is piling on with unsubstantiated claims as the headlines while they ignore an avalanche of hard evidence about corruption, pay to play, political favoritism emanating out of Hillary Clinton’s years as secretary of state. We found out this week, that while she was secretary of state, her officials in that department actually directed reconstruction contracts in Haiti to friends of the Clinton. this is precisely the kind of pay to play politics she said wasn’t happening as their foundation accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign governments.”

“Just this morning The New York Times is reporting that in exchange for a five-minute meeting, the government of Qatar pledged $1 million to the Clinton Foundation. The American people are tired of all of this, and frankly, they’re very tired, present company excepted, they’re tired of the media going after unsubstantiated allegations that Donald Trump has categorically denied while they willfully ignore an avalanche of hard evidence about Clinton’s scandals,” he added.

Oh, new thread.

I know this should be for debate 3, but watch what really happened in debate 2, if you haven't yet.

If Trump closes down a casino & deprives a hundred people of their livelihoods, he's just doing his job. That's the harsh reality of business.

If HC advocates to make sure justice is done & is seen to be done for a single accused criminal, so that not only the rich people (like Donald Trump) can get justice, then she's an awful woman. The law is an arse... I guess. Really we should just lynch all accused the moment the accusation is made. Would save so much time & bother.

Rodo : I'm not getting quite what you're asking - since Tony Blair we've run a big trade deficit pretty much - are you saying Brexit should instantly remove that deficit? Am I being too simplistic in trying to understand your question?

I know what you mean winchester

Hi SadTed there's something about your tone I'm really not liking. I agree with the sentiment behind what you're writing - absolutely - but don't call her a witch. Also the tone.

Thanks for that post Claig

Clinton's defence actually made out 12 yo Kathy fantasied about older men and was basically asking for it.

Kathy was then a 12 yo virgin who was left in coma by the attack and badly lacerated in her genital area.

The poor women is clearly still suffering to this day.

The witch is such a great advocate for women and children

Rufus I made my point but it came up again, I didn't bring it up
I know I sound like a tell tale