Trump vs Clinton Round 3. Probably the biggest debate ever.

If the Establishment can't get Hillary in, they know that they are done for

This is so true, because she is the 'inside man' for all the foreign powers, dictators, multinationals, special interest groups of every kind. Methinks her campaign people are going to pull something out of the bag that might hobble Trump. Whatever is presented may not be true, but it will be done just a few days away from voting day and will throw people into a quandry.

I agree with you fourmummy, I think most would, but with Trump what else is there to focus on? His amazing policies? His generosity in helping others less fortunate? I can't find a single redeeming quality about him.

Lweji - I found her uninspiring and boring when I tried to listen to her. She's going to deliver exactly what has been delivered already (or worse). I know this already (but, of course, others may find her ok). People are now wising up to the separation between 'woman' and message, and are realising that women can be anti-feminist just as black people can be racist and homosexuals can be homophobic. The message trumps (sorry) the messenger. That's why it's a bit pointless celebrating a 'woman' candidate on account of her sex only. That's why it's a bit pointless honing in on Trump's horrible persona. People know this. This is why the GE and Brexit happened.

poster SadTed Sun 16-Oct-16 14:25:23
Nope Hillary is unhinged, what kinda sick bastard gets a paedo of the hook for the rape of a 12 year old girl you clearly don't know how defence works my fil is a QC and all defence barristers job is to get there client found not guilty end of my fil has got some people off however the law in the uk and the us is your found not guilty you are innocent

And you will be surprised what barristers laugh about if you really think the prosecution you are in dream land sadly most barristers don't give a shit about there clings it's usually about winning it has one on the highest rates of physcopath personality traits

Donald trump was sued because he refused to rent to black people nither is a fab its a choice between a kick in the teeth and a punch in the face I think

Carly is very capable, she could have taken Hillary apart, but she agrees with the Establishment on most issues.

I think Hillary would have held her own quite well.

But it's a reminder that this election is being conducted in a way that nursery schools would recognise. Everything has been so viscerally personal. Because Trump can't operate at any other level, and that's been to Hillary's disadvantage because she's a grown up.

In other elections, the good candidates hone their arguments in debate, and are forced out of their comfort zones: exposed on policy provisions etc.

That's diversion.
We're not discussing the UK...
And how many women have been elected as Tory or Labour leaders so far?
Who actually wanted to lead Brexit at this point?

The misogyny accusation doesn't work on uk sovial conservatives who are happy with Teresa may

Or, more to the point, how is a sexual predator more feminist than Hillary?

Being a woman does not preclude you from being uninspiring, boring and 'old hat'

Quite frankly, if you vote based on how boring or not a candidate is, then not much can be done. Trump is clearly less boring than Hillary. For all the wrong reasons, but certainly less boring.
She'll never be a show woman.

But I still don't understand why a feminist would vote for Trump rather than Hillary.
You may not think she represents you, but Trump does? How?

So what does rebellion look like?
violence, riots, shootings, cities burning, military called in, dictatorship. war.

Isn't that how it usually goes? fun. can't wait.

There's quite a large percentage of the population that doesn't care for what women say.

Yes, there's some truth in that, which is why feminists stress that it's not about the person but the message. Being a woman does not preclude you from being uninspiring, boring and 'old hat' (much like being black does not mean that you can't be racist). Feminist ideology transcends the individual. 'It's about masculinity, not men', 'It's about racism, not ethnicity' sort of thing. There's still a long way to go in getting that message across.

Back to Hillary - she is not perceived as a feminist (lots of references to this), despite that word being rammed down the populations's throat, because she does not send out a feminist message despite being a woman (an example of this is the lack of care over the women and girls whose lives she has destroyed in her actions in Libya).

in an age of click bait and sound bites this travels a lot further than any amount of reasoned argument.
Yes.
Particularly when one is an accomplished show man. And a man.
There's quite a large percentage of the population that doesn't care for what women say.

"tried to listen to one of her speeches recently and wandered off"

That is probably quite a crucial point, although this says more about attention spans than the content of what she was saying. Trump speaks, at his best, like a dysfunctional 8 year old and in an age of click bait and sound bites this travels a lot further than any amount of reasoned argument.

I don't think it's as complicated as you've all said. People have heard it all before, with Hillary, with Cameron, with Blair (I got fooled by Blair in '97). Trump has taken a steamroller and driven it through the lies, which people knew were always there but didn't know how to relate to. I tried to listen to one of her speeches recently and wandered off. That's actually true. She has nothing to say. We all know what she's going to say before she says it. I could have written her speech for her. Trump has made it possible for ordinary people to say, "Why is that bearded 30-year old with stubble being called a 'child'?" or "Why do we need more people when 80 million of us are struggling?". Hillary says "I'm going to address your concerns by giving you more of the same'. His appeal, from my reading of it, is that he doesn't even need answers! People are ridiculously pleased at just being able to ask these questions (which says more about our society than Hillary's speeches ever will). People who don't understand his appeal are focusing on the answers part and not enough on the actual questions that come before.

I'll summarise it for you.

Some people are about the movement - and are sadly mistaken if they think he's genuine about the movement.
Many people have always voted GOP and will.
Many people are anti-abortion, anti- foreigners, pro-guns, etc and will never vote Democrat.
Some people will follow what looks like a strong leader with appealing words, particularly a celebrity, without thinking. Add to that the limited education, particularly about world issues, and how knowledge is frowned upon these days, and it'a a dangerous mix.
Plus, some people will never vote for a woman against any man.
This is not simplistic at all. It's reality.

I totally understand people wanting something different. Normally, a Republican candidate would be expected to be in front. The Republicans have turned their own guts to support Trump.
It's just not working.

We'll see in a few weeks.

Honestly it's like people want his appeal to be a certain thing because it fits the rot world view.

More like, some people desperately want his appeal to be beyond that.
Sadly, it isn't.

See that just shows you don't really get the appeal of the movemen

That was in reply to your own lack of understanding of his appeal, not the movement.

In any case, even those who are against establishment - and I tend to be one, just don't fall for conspiracy theories crap - should see that he's not the man for any anti-establishment movement. It's only words. And to get power for himself. He doesn't give a crap about the little people.

Very good article here from Jonathan Freedland on Trump's claims of vote rigging, and on the way that black and Hispanic voters are deterred from voting.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/17/man-who-cried-rigged-problem-with-trump-election-claims

Honestly it's like people want his appeal to be a certain thing because it fits the rot world view. Beyond that - cannot compute.

His appeal is the same as Farage. Targeting a section of the population who are vulnerable, frustrated. Giving them simplistic promises whilst utterly ignoring their real ( too complex) problems. Utterly manipulating people's fears for his own ends. Treating the people or the non elite or whatever we are calling them today with utter contempt.

Have you tried to understand beyond that knee jerk reaction. It goes back to what I was saying before about Clinton struggling to fight it because she doesn't understand it

See that just shows you don't really get the appeal of the movement lweji

of course the Republican hierarchy aren't helping Trump

Of course.
What's surprising is that there are still people who haven't disowned him.
Not because of any establishment, but because of himself.
He is not Jesus Christ. He's Brian. And a nasty, vain, Brian.