24 hours to go and I still cannot decide! Help!

I'm in favour of leaving the EU, for reasons of sovereignty and democracy. People have given up a great deal for those in the past, and while none of us will enjoy an economic downturn, I don't think you can put a price on democracy.

I've thought about the key points (for me) and what's important for myself and those I care about in say 10 years time. I've put scare mongering aside and chosen the option which will leave me living in the kind of country I want (long term).

When I was your age, OAPs were poor and couldn't afford heating (why do you think they invented winter fuel allowance

This all sounds a bit "it was much worse in our day" which it certainly was. I'm sure I enjoy a better standard of living than my grandparents did (possibly on a par with parents).
Does that mean I should welcome another recession? I shouldn't worry about losing my job and possibly my home because life was tougher for my grandparents?

horrid You must be unlucky with your neighbours. Not only can I remember our own generation's struggles but I remember the generation before's as well. When I was your age, OAPs were poor and couldn't afford heating (why do you think they invented winter fuel allowance?).
Forgive our generation if we try to organise our lives so that we don't die of hypothermia.

Where are = where I

I really must start proof reading

purits

I don't think my generation is a special hard done by case. I imagine most over 65s have faced many hardships in their lives.

The over 65s where are live are pretty lucky though. They have benefited from huge rises in house prices and have lovely pensions.

What I would like if for them to remember the fears they had when they were younger. Remember worrying about paying the mortgage and losing their job.
Quite a lot struggle to remember what it was like when they were less financially secure. obivously I'm not talking about all over 65s, it's just some of the ones I know locally

I'm on the fence still aswell. I don't feel like there are enough facts from either side. It feels like a lot of scare mongering. Does any body really know what will happen either way? Is it purely the trade deals that are making lots of companies state they wish to remain?

My dmum is a bit of a conspiracy theorist and she is convinced that Dave will rig the vote anyway, she keeps reminding me to mark my vote in ink and she also says that even if we vote to leave that doesn't necessarily mean the government have to do it.

I don't know whether it's best to stick with what we know or see if the grass is indeed greener on the other side.

horrid You do realise, don't you, that when the over-65s were your age they were in exactly the same boat? They had bills to pay and recessions to face. Why do your generation think they are some sort of special hard-done-by case. Get some historical perspective!

I'm voting to remain.

If we leave I'm pretty sure dh will lose his job pretty quickly. Mine will probably take a few years before its gone (in the event of leave).

I'm pretty annoyed locally. My local population is elderly and well off. I'm getting pretty pissed off at the over 65s. They've retired and paid off their mortgage so they have less to lose than me - I still have huge bills to pay.

There are undoubtedly many crap things about the EU, but I think that using that as one's sole decision-making criterion risks ignoring UK national interest, which tbh is the main reason I am voting to remain.

The reality is although we send lots of money to the EU we get lots back for projects that the government of the day won't nevessarily want to spend money on but are needed. The close trade links also pay for themselves by the bucketload.

The sugfestion of lots of leavers is thatwe replace the EU with the commonwealth, but none of the commonwealth countries want us to leave!

Personally, I don't really understand wanting to leave the EU. It makes us money, it keeps things peaceful, it gives us the opportunity to solce difficult problems together. Sulking and leaving is hugely unlikely to get us what we want but sending MEPs who care and want to engage has been really effective. We get what we want the vast majority of the time. It's often really where we've sent idiot MEPs who don't go to meetings or vote (looking at you Farage) that we don't get what we want for our contribution!

You know that the EU is set up to benefit German manufacturing and French agriculture. The reason why the EU expands is because Germany needs to find new customers to buy its BMWs.
Have you noticed how the poor countries get poorer (Greece, Spain, Portugal, etc) but Germany just keeps getting richer? They sell them the dream of new motorways and peace in our time but they end up worse off economically.
Some day, those chickens will come home to roost.

If you don't know spoil your ballot.

Your vote should reflect how you feel. There are a lot of people who feel very strongly about this. Should your vote negate one of theirs?

Great if you genuinely are persuaded one way or another in the next 24 hours.

There won't be a next time either way MrsM, that's very naive.

So you can absolutely categorically guarantee that there will never ever be another EU referendum?

That's interesting, what else can you guarantee? Will Ipswich get promoted this season? Will it rain at my party on 20 July?

I'm a bit undecided too OP. I thought I'd (eventually) chosen Remain but now I'm wobbling again.
I knew I'd be like this. I'm a classic floating voter who listens to politics show for fun. I work from home and have all the talk on pretty much all day. I think I've listened too much.

I really think I'll have to decide in booth.

The UK hasn't opted out of science funding and has been getting a lot from the EC.

What about chances to rejoin if all goes tits up?

snurk. I think you meant 'when' not 'if'.

Look at how it has panned out recently - we opted out of Schengen, we opted out of the Euro, we opted out of ever-closer-union.
We are going in a different direction to the rest of the EU. It's about time that we admitted that we/they are not a good fit.
Trade with them - yes; but all the rest of the baggage? - no.

There won't be a next time either way MrsM, that's very naive.
What about chances to rejoin if all goes tits up?

Haven't read in full that article from the LSE bloke (cause otherwise the thread will run away) but I disagree with his trade argument.
The bad thing about the EU is that it seems too self-contained. It trades within itself, it doesn't look outside. We might trade with them but it seems to be at the expense of trading with the Rest of the World. We are restricted from making our own deals, we have to go with the EU trade deal.
We used to trade lots with RoW (our old commonwealth partners) but the EU put a stop to that. They want us caught closer and closer in their web.

There won't be a next time either way MrsM, that's very naive.

If you can't decide, voting in would be sensible whilst you make your mind up. You can vote differently next time, if you vote out, there won't be a next time.

Have a look at the 'why are we staying in the EU if we are selling everything off' thread. That's a really scary list.

The EU is definitely taking from the UK, hand over fist it appears.

For an unbiased viewpoint...

You can hardly say that and then link to an article entitled 'Why I will be voting Remain'

We've had a negative balance of trade (more imports than exports, across the world not just with the EU) for AGES.

We are just not that great at making stuff people abroad want to buy any more (with some major exceptions, obviously). I don't think that's a reason for leaving in itself, especially as it will probably get worse if we leave (as the EU will probably put trade barriers against UK goods unless we join the EEA and accept free movement of people).