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Politics

Explanation needed about exit of EU

40 replies

HappydaysArehere · 06/02/2016 10:07

Please can anyone clarify two points? Firstly, how much will it cost us? That is on ongoing expenditure such as Switzerland and Norway have to pay. Secondly, how long will it take to extract us from all the treaties and legal detritus and again wil this be just money for EU lawyers etc? With these questions unanswered I am really on the fence.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
cdtaylornats · 13/06/2016 22:28

www.barcouncil.org.uk/media/472103/exec_summary_bar_council_eu_referendum_final.pdf

Neutral explanation from the bar council

lljkk · 08/06/2016 12:04

Someone on Radio5 today said another valid way to leave EU is to simply repeal out of our laws the legislation that put UK into EU. I'm not sure if that's better, but it might give us more time to keep current trade deals while negotiating new ones.

lljkk · 06/06/2016 22:04

I reckon there will be an opportunity to negotiate an extension to our leaving date. Took 9 yrs for Switzerland to negotiate their trade deals with UK (I heard).

Spinflight · 06/06/2016 21:57

Article 50 gives two years to extract. It is actually both for renegotiation and to prepare for leaving.

Cameron has, rather foolishly, refused a further referendum to accept or reject a renegotiation in light of an article 50 so two years it is then out.

Norway pays a couple of billion per year and Switzerland far less as contributions for access to the single market. However they both enact most ( about 80%) of laws and directives and impose them upon all of their companies. Saying that their bulk exports to the rest of the world are very limited so it makes some sense for them.

There is no explicit need for this, only the 6-8% of businesses which actually trade with the EU should technically have to accept all the European standards in this country should we leave. Hence companies which trade with India would have to abide by the Indian's standards, not the EU ones.

I can see some problems here, but advantageous ones in the main.

As for how much would we have to pay, that will be part of the two years of negotiation. Cameron hasn't exactly given himself a strong hand to work with here with his insistence that the four horsemen of the apocalypse will strike hence it might be on the high side.

Certainly a lot less than we currently pay and technically there is no particular reason why we should pay anything barring the EU's intransigence and the incompetence of our politicians.

They export £30-40 billions worth more than we export to them so tarifs would actually be to our advantage on paper. More so when they are no longer allowed to plunder our fishing free of charge. Most of the EU fishing fleets are from nations that are in some distress already, particularly the Spanish so the loss of this would be a read headache and drain on the EU.

Interestingly a lot of the problems off the horn of Africa are actually due to EU fishing fleets being given rights to plunder there, which resulted in no fish for the locals who resorted to piracy. Hence it is fairly clear that the appetite for fish is strong and one that we would provide, at prices set by ourselves.

Whilst the remain side with all of their tame economists claim figures such as £9 billion gain the EU itself is figuring on a £30 odd billion loss to it's accounts. That isn't necessarily a net gain on our side, more likely somewhere in the middle however few seem to realise that VAT is an EU tax with a proportion going straight to it's coffers. It was a requirement for membership in the early 70s and alien to us before that.

VAT on fuels in particular is a growth destroyer and I'd expect it's removal alone would provide sufficient impetus to the economy to negate any fees or danegeld demanded.

The EU also benefits from the quality and efficiency of our agriculture. One rarely mentioned side effect of Brexit is the likely monopolization of the common agricultural policy farmers ( particularly the French ones) who frankly could bankrupt and ruin a superpower given their demands.

Who nowadays could conceive of a more eco friendly and efficient system than our dairies of old. Recycled glass bottles, electric vehicles and all local and freshly delivered to your door. Twas the EU farmers wot killed them, oh and our own politicians embarrassed by the milk lake, butter mountain etc.

My thought, though I am no expert, is that given a year they'd both be begging and paying us to remain in the free trade zone though I have no faith in our politicians to deliver such a deal in our interests.

So in summary our position would be strong, very strong, but our politicians weak.

Twas ever thus.

Andyhall · 10/03/2016 21:55

Hi everyone,
I am a first time poster so go easy on me please Smile
I will be voting for brexit for the following reasons

  1. We are the worlds fifth strongest economy and I believe smaller businesses would be able to compete more with the larger businesses without the rules and burocracy demanded by the EU. This could result in cheaper prices for goods and services and also help with exports.
  2. I believe that the NHS and other public services will be at risk of privatisation because of TTIP which would happen very soon after the referendum. The NHS is in great financial difficulties now and is being primed for privatisation. Only Brexit will stop that.
3 The end game will be a giant superstate where we do not have real representation and democracy as we know it.
  1. Our influence in Europe is better served outside the EU.
  2. We do not have the infrastructure to cope with the numbers of migrants that choose the UK as there choice of destination and whilst we remain we have the question of Turkey being admitted in addition to the refugee question which the UK will be encouraged to address. Roads,schools, health services jobs and wages and cultural disharmony could fracture British society as we know it leading to a a significant lowering of living standards and wages to ordinary working Brits.
  3. We will save 20 billion quid a year in EU contributions which could go towards better roads,schools and health services to name but 3 things.
Last but not least,we are better able to ensure the security if this country from fifth columnists and terror attacks at a time when the EU is falling apart at the seams as evidenced by what's happening in Germany,Sweden,Austria and France.plus the schengen agreement being ignored by some member states. Consider too the struggling economies of southern European countries such as Greece wanting bail outs and the high unemployment rates in Spain,Italy, Portugal and others and it is clearly project doom and the sooner we get out the better. As the old saying goes " you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"
thebiscuitindustry · 28/02/2016 20:54

I agree with what Giles Fraser said on Question Time the other day, as he made a left-wing case for Brexit.

He said "Democracy is not for sale".

HappydaysArehere · 22/02/2016 10:26

Thank you everyone. Fantastic posts which I am reading and rereading.

OP posts:
VertigoNun · 21/02/2016 13:55

I was born in England and have an Irish parent, so I have dual nationality. I would on my Irish passport, be free to remain an EU citizen. I have no desire to live or work abroad etc, personally.

Nona79 · 21/02/2016 13:24

Thanks vertigo, does that mean that those with an Irish passport/dual citizenship would still have the benefits of EU membership even if the Brexit happens?

VertigoNun · 21/02/2016 13:07

I guess dual nationality and an Anglo-Irish agreement to keep the border open.

Nona79 · 21/02/2016 10:47

Anybody know how the people of Northern Ireland will be affected? Some hold Irish citizenship under the good Friday agreement, will they still be considered members of the EU or will this have a massive knock on affect to the peace agreements in Northern Ireland with nationalists no longer able to claim Irish citizenship?

lljkk · 21/02/2016 10:44

So Switzerland (popn=8million) pays about £500million to have a relationshp with EU.
Norway (popn = 5 mln) paid 300 million euros (~ £232 mln) in 2013 for its relationship with EU.

So UK with popn = 64 million, should pay £3.6-£4 billion for similar relationships with UK... right?

I wonder what Morroco, Lebanon or Egypt pay, they have relationships with EU more like what most Referndum-Out people want to have.

Slimmingcrackers · 21/02/2016 10:04

CarolDecker re: the animal welfare issues

Sadly the core problem is in your last comment - I'm sure 90% of consumers do want better animal welfare when asked about this in a questionnaire. However, the evidence is that they not willing to pay the extra to secure this when they reach the cash till!

Suppose we did impose national rules on pig production - increasing the price of pork by eg 50% - do you think that consumers would switch to chicken or other meats or protein which remains cheaper?

The better route by far would be to use the EU to secure better welfare across the EU - the EU Commission has been working on this for years but the Member States have essentially squashed their proposals.

I would far prefer to see the commercial pressure of consumers across Europe push for change - but to do this we need to be not only in the EU but leading the charge for these changes!

caroldecker · 20/02/2016 19:26

Slimming Norway

We could try and improve standards in the EU, or we could make our own and ensure all meat eaten in the UK had higher standards. At the moment, all we do is put UK farmers out of business and continue to treat animals badly.

Less than half of UK eaten pork meets UK welfare standards, despite 90% of UK consumers wanting them to.

Slimmingcrackers · 20/02/2016 16:53

Carol yes we have a higher standard of animal welfare in the UK than in some other Member States but surely the point is that we want to use our position in the EU to improve animal welfare across 28 Member States? This is a good example of where we need to do more in the EU not less.

Will check about Norway, could be wrong, but fairly sure that it is more than 21%. Do you have a source for this figure pls?

caroldecker · 20/02/2016 16:46

Slimming

The UK introduced tougher rules on veal and pork production than the EU, but cannot prevent EU meat being sold in the UK. So veal and pork is sold in the country that is raised in conditions that are illegal in the UK. If we were outside the EU, the government could stop the importation of food that breached UK laws, in the same way we currently ban the import of food that breaches EU laws.
The EU does not necessarily want higher welfare standards, it took until 1996 for veal crates to be banned because the French like them and the EU needs everyone to agree. Until then, UK calves were airfreighted to France, because crates were banned in the UK in 1990.
Norway does not pay to access the free market, it pays to be part of some EU things, such as the European Defence agency out of choice.
Norway has introduced about 21% of EU laws, again out of choice.

VertigoNun · 20/02/2016 14:30

Marking my place for later.

Slimmingcrackers · 20/02/2016 14:27

To respectfully reply to CarolDecker are you suggesting that Tesco will no longer supply pork from Denmark? Of course they will because British consumers want cheap food.

The issue is using the EU to agree to higher standards, which means everyone has to conform and our farmers cannot be undercut. But at the moment, UK consumers want cheaper food. The EU is the best route to resolve this, not the cause of it!!

Slimmingcrackers · 20/02/2016 14:21

First point.

I assume it would be negotiated. And the costs would be calculated for the UK economy but would be proportionate to the costs paid by Switzerland and Norway for their economies. Logically, the greater the economic benefit to the UK, the greater the entrance fee to the EU market.

Second point.

In terms of leaving, the EU Treaty provides a two-year phase out period ie the agreement to leave would have to be concluded within two years of a no vote (but this is unchartered territory!).

In terms of future disputes over rights acquired under the EU treaties but apparently lost on UK exit, I would image that the lawyers can look forward to decades of (profitable for them!) litigation!

All the time, these costs and uncertainties would surely impact on inward investment in to the UK.

Surely all international companies currently considering investments in the UK will now have to be thinking about how Brexit would affect their business?

PerspicaciaTick · 17/02/2016 20:02

This is a really interesting BBC Radio 4 programme about Norway's relationship with Europe, some of the costs involved and the impact the EU legislation has on Norwegian businesses.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06wj1bt

caroldecker · 17/02/2016 19:59

Of the £34bn tax gap, £2.5bn is tobacco and alcohol duties which would be recovered if the UK could prevent imports from the EU duty paid. A further £1bn is missing trader fraud on VAT which would also be recovered.
In fact, the whole VAT process could be reviewed and replaced with a much simpler sales tax (could also zero rate tampons and change throughout the country to reduce costs in deprived areas).
Common standards do not lead to safer and more enviromentally friendly products. The UK welfare standards for pigs is higher then the EU, but they cannot block (mainly Danish) cheaper, less welfare friendly products being imported. The new EU rules on vaping products are also anti-health. Eu fisheries policy in UK waters has also been a huge disaster, whilst farming subsidies (70% of EU spending) are bonkers.

STIDW · 17/02/2016 14:30

Damned predicative text "travelling to the authorised of the world" should read "travelling to the other side of the world"

STIDW · 17/02/2016 14:26

does anyone know of good solid information sources on the impacts?

Our contribution to the EU is about £20bn a year but we get back about £8-9bn through the rebate & the Agricultural Guarantee Fund to farmers.
In 2014, British companies sold around £229bn in good & services to the EU (ONS). The EU exported £61.6bn more to the UK than we did to them. However many of the costs/benefits of EU membership are difficult to quantify.

In addition to trade the UK receives more Foreign Direct Investment (& the jobs that brings) from the EU than any other country, worth around £500bn in 2014. Common standards lead to safer & more environmentally friendly products. Freedom of movement enables academics to easily access & share a wide pool of knowledge without travelling to the authorised of the world or needing to wait for visas. Sharing knowledge improves research leading to better products.

Financial markets don’t like uncertainty so stability & security has economic benefits. Although NATO is the main guarantor from external threat the EU plays a role in creating & extending friendship, co-operation, democracy & the rule of law within Europe.

As I said above nearly all the costs/benefits of EU membership analysis available relies on some sort of assumption. Channel 4’s Fact Check & Full Fact websites examine the various claims.

caroldecker · 16/02/2016 13:49

We would not have to follow EU rules for everybody. People who export to US, China etc have to make sure the products meet the legislation in that area and we have no say in it, the EU would be no different. Smaller companies which don't export would not have to follow the same rules.
Greenland left and are happy with the descision.

harrasseddotcom · 16/02/2016 13:25

sorry, just having a wee laugh at the Scottish 'hating' the English sooooo much. Is this in the same vein that only ukippers are voting out because they hate all those foreign terrorist immigrants?