Could somebody explain why Corbyn shouldn't be voted for as Labour party leader?

'Yes but HOW, the man is not inventing the social/economic wheel for feck sake, what will be different to the last Labour government he was an MP in for 13-years, where is the detail and how much will it cost on top of our £1.6 tril of national debt now?'

By taxing banks, coprporations and the metropolitan elite who will face swingeing cuts to their taxpayer funded lifestyles and their charidee tax breaks, I presume. Jez we can!

'achievable policies do not matter to you, but the devil is in the detail and will be under scrutiny'

I believe aything is achievable. i am not a 'hopeless realist', a spinner or a servant. I believe that where there is a will there is way. Jez we can!

As George Monbiot so brilliantly put it

"Rebuilding a political movement means espousing what is desirable, then finding ways to make it feasible. The hopeless realists propose the opposite. They assemble a threadbare list of policies they consider feasible, then seek to persuade us that this package is desirable."

'I could be an MP and say I will cure world hunger, that does not make it so.'

Precisely, because you support the spinners and their mindset and therefore find it hard for people to believe in what you say, just as they do. The public have had enough of the old Establishment ways. They think more is possible. Jez we can!

claig ... "Jez offers homes, jobs, better services, public investment and a better future for the people."

Yes but HOW, the man is not inventing the social/economic wheel for feck sake, what will be different to the last Labour government he was an MP in for 13-years, where is the detail and how much will it cost on top of our £1.6 tril of national debt now?

Clearly having followed Farage for years, achievable policies do not matter to you, but the devil is in the detail and will be under scrutiny, not just at General Election times.

I could be an MP and say I will cure world hunger, that does not make it so.

DinosaursRoar, I think Jez will surprise everyone. He has already surprised the Labour grandees and the Blairites. They never saw this coming in their worst nightmares.

It is a rollercoaster and it will flatten the Tories next.

Remember that most voters don't know who Corbyn is yet. In a mugshot line up of Brown, Blair and Kinnock, they wouldn't be able to pick out Corbyn.

When they finally get to hear what he is offering, it will be a landslide which is why the Labour grandees are in overdrive to stop Corbyn. Remember what Blair said

“Let me make my position clear: I wouldn’t want to win on an old-fashioned leftist platform. Even if I thought it was the route to victory, I wouldn’t take it.”

That is what the Establishment say too.

I think the point is, he's not a potential Prime Minster, but a leader of the Labour party who'll help it get to a point where it's not just trying to be "Tory-lite" but offer a clear alternative to the Conservatives.

As the next election isn't until 2020, and it's unlikely Labour will win that no matter what, then rather than focusing on "what Labour would do" it might be better to focus on "why Labour will pick the policies they will do".

'I hope other ukip voters can find what they were looking for in politics with jez as alot of my school friends voted ukip. '

It is very simple. Jez offers homes, jobs, better services, public investment and a better future for the people. The Establishment can't beat that, they have nothing to match it and that is why they can only call Corbyn names, just as they called Farage names before him.

What has returned is hope, and ordinary people are not listening to the doom and gloom and despair of the metropolitan elite whether espoused by Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock or anyone else the public feels is not on their side.

Jez is on the side of the people and that is what the Estabishment dislike.

"I remember this fervour over ukip"

Domestic policy lite, unsavoury overseas political relationships, yet unrealistic supporter fervour - that does not stand up to external scrutiny come General Election times - yes we have seen it before.

”Of course Ukip won't condemn its racist new partners, because Ukip is the cult of Nigel Farage”

“Ukip has allied itself with racists and Holocaust deniers - but as long as that's OK with Nigel Farage, the cult leader, don't expect a peep of condemnation from within the party”
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/nigel-farage/11179456/Of-course-Ukip-wont-condemn-its-racist-new-partners-because-Ukip-is-the-cult-of-Nigel-Farage.html

'especially with the UK's problems and with no detail how it will be achieved'

It is this paucity of vision, this message of despair that Labour Party members have rejected by abandoning the Establishment sponsored Labour leadership candidates. George Monbiot put it brilliantly

"Rebuilding a political movement means espousing what is desirable, then finding ways to make it feasible. The hopeless realists propose the opposite. They assemble a threadbare list of policies they consider feasible, then seek to persuade us that this package is desirable."

The "hopeless realists", the spinners and servants, have been discredited, no one believes in them any more.

We are Great Britain, we are the people, we are not spinners and servants. Can we solve things? Jez we can.

It is all about optimism and hope and confidence, just like in the stock market and economic recoveries. Sentiment and hope swings the market. When confidence returns, people invest and growth resumes.

The dark night has ended, the doom and gloom is no longer believed by anybody apart from the metropolitan elite, the people have hope once again. Jez we can!

'Parliament can bring in as many simpletons claiming how 'ordinary' they are as they like'

What has Andy Burnham got to do with this?

P.S. I don't practically agree with ONE of his policies, but one ideological Corbyn would be worth five Farages in Isit currency.

claig .... "In Farage and Corbyn we have simply the best and simply the vest."

Being 'simple' and telling people what you think they want to hear, especially with the UK's problems and with no detail how it will be achieved, does not maketh a leader - FYI we give State Funerals to those solving the UK's problems, not causing them.

Parliament can bring in as many simpletons claiming how 'ordinary' they are as they like, but once they get INTO POWER, they have to become 'the establishment' - as the problems are the same whether an MP is a numb-nuts, or an Einstein.

Hoisting snake oil Dr Farage up there with ideologically pure Corbyn is rather amusing though e.g. expenses king Farage just before the General Election stated he believed that every MP should be annually paid a £100k salary, I wonder having failed for the 8th time to join the 'establishment' at Westminster, if the grande flip flop feels the same?

'I find it hilarious that so much is being projected onto Corbyn, when he's actually revealed very few hard policies.'

I don't find it hilarious at all. It shows the despair at how we are being governed and the pent-up hope that someone will finally change things.

'Is he to become the leader of the Population Front of Judea or the Judean Popular Front?'

That is the type of joke Tony Blair will share with the Bullingdon Club, but they won't be laughing for long when Corbyn leads the Labour Party and defeats their shared consensus with ease.

'If Corbyn is thought of as a solution it just shows what dire straits the Labour party is now in. '

This is not about the Labour Party, it is about the country. Tony Blair, Oxford PPE, and the Labour Party represent the Establishment, Tory-lite, the same as Cameron. Corbyn has challenged our entire political system - the Labour-Tory consensus.

'Claig - your reasoning is completely irrational.'

Some people said that when I predicted the success of UKIP and a landslide in Clacton.

'I remember this fervour over ukip'

That's right because 4 million people didn't vote UKIP because they agree with what Douglas Carswell says or what we know of Farage's policies. 4 million voted UKIP because they have had enough of how the country is run by the metropolitan elite, and what we are seeing with Corbyn is exactly the same discontent.

Everyone is now waiting for the best solutions and Corbyn will win back lots of disaffected voters who turned to UKIP in exasperation with how the country is being run.

As I understand it, our nuclear weapons are dependent on the Americans.

"UK's nuclear deterrent entirely dependent on the US – crossparty report"

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/defence-and-security-blog/2014/jul/01/trident-nuclear-weapons-uk

If Corbyn fired them at a country which has them, then I wouldn't like to think of what the retaliation would be like, and he wouldn't fire them at a country that didn't have them.

Even some of our generals don't think they are that useful

"Trident nuclear missiles are £20bn waste of money, say generals"

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/16/trident-is-20bn-waste-say-generals

The wars of the future are likely to be using conventional weapons. For anything nuclear, America would bail us out because it would be in their interests to do so. There is no charity involved, everything is about self interest.

I find it hilarious that so much is being projected onto Corbyn, when he's actually revealed very few hard policies.

Is he to become the leader of the Population Front of Judea or the Judean Popular Front?

If Corbyn is thought of as a solution it just shows what dire straits the Labour party is now in.

I hope the Blairites leave and set up a new centre party. The wet Tories can join it too and we can get back to real choice of left, centre and right wing party choices

Claig - your reasoning is completely irrational.

I've joined the labour party to vote for jez. Everything he has gone against the whip for I would to. I feel our views are aligned and I want him as a left winger to lead a left wing opposition. It will draw attention to how right the cons are going and I love that people my age (27) and under have enthusiasm for politics again because of him.
As for your question OP from talking to the labour counsellor and my neighbour an ex labour mp secretary as much as they agree with corbyns views they don't believe he will win. They want his ideal world but think it's all a tory conspiracy about his popularity.
I'm voting jez because he best represents my views and isn't that why we elect and vote for these people. I'm not strategy voting I'm consciously voting. I can't understand a left wing party not wanting to be left anymore, if that's the case join another party that aligns with your centre or right views.

I'm so surprised at claig on this thread,I remember this fervour over ukip. I hope other ukip voters can find what they were looking for in politics with jez as alot of my school friends voted ukip. I was horrified at the time as I believe they are the bnp Britain's first type, maybe jez has what it takes to bring them back in the fold.

So what would weapons would Corbyn use to go to war with Claig, if he was forced to do do? Don't forget he'll have given up the nuclear deterrent. Or will he expect the Americans to bail us out for. 3rd time.

'In Brown we had 'the clunking fist' and now we have 'the chainmail vest''

No, in Brown we had the Establishment clunk, in Corbyn we have the £1.50 market trader's vest and in the Tories we have the vested interests.

In Farage and Corbyn we have simply the best and simply the vest.

"Jeremy Corbyn tells Labour MPs: if you don't back me, the grassroots will rise up"

In Brown we had 'the clunking fist' and now we have 'the chainmail vest' - claig you really should be mentioned in despatches for your services to every political party, other than the Labour one.

Russell Brand backs Corbyn, nuff said.

Personally I don't think it worth countering your posts based on how often you've been wrong on our leadership material and their general election results, so with Corbyn now a Labour leader shoe-in - thanks to his friends in well left of centre places ignoring the obvious as warned by many learned people (a-hem lol) - I want to just sit back and be fascinated by the Labour Parliamentary Party aftermath.

I say fascinated, as I take no democratic joy having the only real united opposition party in Westminster, only representing their own 5 million citizens (allegedly).

Personal attacks are used when all else fails and Corbyn has the wherewithal to say that. I doubt it will be that much of an issue tbh as if/when Cameron steps down, the guy replacing him has his own chequered past to deal with and it's much more interesting than Corbyns....

The elite know that if Corbyn succeeds in winning over the savviest, most trenchant critics of the status quo, the most switched-on portion of the electorate - UKIP voters (otherwise known as the People's Army) - then it is game over. That is what keeps them awake at night.

"Jeremy Corbyn Targets Ukip Supporters As Harriet Harman Calls In The Lawyers

Labour leadership frontrunner Jeremy Corbyn claimed on Tuesday his anti-austerity message could win back support from former Labour voters who have drifted to Ukip. The veteran MP said his call for higher public spending has gained support on the campaign trail in areas where Ukip has performed well.

Speaking after addressing a packed rally of 1,200 supporters in Newcastle, Corbyn said: "We lost seats due to the lack of any clear economic alternative and I found campaigning in Ukip areas that when I engaged people on the level of jobs, on schools, on housing and on health and on anti-austerity we got support. But if all we could offer was cuts, but done in a slightly different way than the Tories had done for the last five years, then people simply didn't want to know."

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/18/labour-calls-in-lawyers-over-its-leadership-contest_n_8006932.html

"I took to Tinder to convince people to vote for Jeremy Corbyn. Here's what I learned

If Tinder's any guide, Jeremy Corbyn may be the best choice to win over Ukip supporters."

www.newstatesman.com/2015/08/i-took-tinder-convince-people-vote-jeremy-corbyn-heres-what-i-learned

Why do the elite fear the UKIP voter more than any other? Because they know that the UKIP voter understands the game and has their finger on the pulse of public opinion more than any teenage think tank whizzkid form Oxford with a PPE who works for a polling company.

Here is the Guardian's excellent Seumas Milne, a good Oxford PPE.

If you read between the lines, you see that the battle of the elites and their servants to stop Corbyn is the battle of the Establishment against the people. Everything has changed overnight, and they are desperate.

"What is taking place in the Labour party is a democratic explosion unprecedented in British political history.
...
After years of handwringing about declining participation in party politics, you might imagine the political class would be delighted at this grassroots surge. Not a bit of it. The political and media establishment has linked arms to resist it. This is one of Her Majesty’s parties of government, after all. The idea of it falling into the care of someone outside the boundaries of political acceptability is unthinkable.

So one New Labour grandee after another – from Tony Blair to David Miliband – have taken time out from their lucrative post-ministerial careers to brand Corbyn as the road to electoral oblivion. Far from welcoming this vast influx, they want the party declared full up.
...
But the more New Labour’s college of cardinals brands the Corbyn surge a self-indulgent spasm, the more it exposes official politics as a closed system whose rules of what is credible and electable are set by the powers that be rather than by voters or party members.
...
You only have to go to one of the campaign’s huge rallies to understand that the idea this is the product of political or union manipulation is laughable – and that his supporters don’t only want a different kind of Labour leader: they want to change the political system.
...
The real objection is that Corbyn represents a break with City-backed austerity and a powerful commitment to public investment. Add to that his opposition to Trident renewal and endless British warmaking, and the challenge he represents to the establishment consensus is obvious enough.

So as each denunciation has failed to dent Corbyn’s lead, they have become more poisonous.
...
But the desperation is a measure of what is at stake."

www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2015/aug/19/jeremy-corbyn-coalition-labour

Their whole game is at stake. It started with Farage and UKIP - 4 million people had had enough. Now it has spread to Labour and they are in panic modeand at a loss of how to stop it. Bigwigs and has-beens are being thrown over the paprapets like sacrifiicial lambs. Their warnings fall on deaf ears, their lies are laughed off, the people have had enough.

They have a real problem on their hands. They are apparntly plotting coups but that will just incnse the people even more and show them how the elite control them and Corbyn has warned them

"Jeremy Corbyn tells Labour MPs: if you don't back me, the grassroots will rise up"

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-tells-labour-mps-if-you-dont-back-me-the-grassroots-will-rise-up-10462770.html

Will they risk it, will they topple Labour's most popular politician in decades because he won't d as he is told?? They may have no choice for their whole game is at stake.

And to make things worse for them, today the elite open their newspapers ad read that Russell Brand has thrown his lot in with the people, with Corbyn. Can things get any worse for the elite? Jez they can!

"Russell Brand backs Jeremy Corbyn in Labour leadership race

Comedian turned political activist endorses the leftwing frontrunner and mocks warnings that the party would face annihilation under him"

www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/19/russell-brand-backs-jeremy-corbyn-in-labour-leadership-race

'I foresee the right wing press having a field day with that'

Yes, they will try everything they can, but I don't think any of it will work. Corbyn is not as commonsense as Farage, but I don't think it will matter because his good policies will far outshine his negatives in the public's eyes.

He will just repeat "we do not do personal abuse" and the public will ignore all the personal abuse against him because they understand that his opponents are desperate, that he has challenged their entire game and that their game is almost up.

True, but Blair was Fettes public school and Oxford PPE. He was the Establishment's man. He took over Labour for the Establishment and ruined it, made it Tory-lite. Corbyn is restoring the heart and soul of Labour, making it a party for the people and not the bankers.

Corbyn will never work for a bank, because he has different principles, ideals and values. He stuck with socialism when it went out of style, out of fashion. They laugh about his woolly jumpers and his beard, but he doesn't care and nor do the people, because everyone knows he is his own man, not the bankers' bag man.

oh and just looked up Corbyn's age to be certain I'd got it right that he's 66, seen he's on his 3rd marriage and claimed he divorced his 2nd wife over arguments about which school to send his DCs to - I foresee the right wing press having a field day with that!! (I would have said I can't believe anyone would get divorced over state school choices, but having seen the insanity on some of the threads on here, I can easily see some woman might dump their DH over it!)

oh typo - obviously in around 5 years time the 66 year old won't be 'nearly' 70 but 'just over' 70!

To be fair Claig - Blair was only 54 with his youngest DC being only 7 when he stopped being the leader of the Labour party, Corbyn's already 66, saying he'll just retire to his allotment rather than get another job after being the leader (so at least another 5 years when he's nearly 70) is hardly a moral stance, more practical/realistic!