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Politics
OP posts:
Imperialleather2 · 28/06/2015 10:28

Op there is a notion of being gracious in defeat. Get over it

We had a democratic election the Tories won. You'd be better arguing for PR being introduced than trying to over turn a recently elected government.

wigglylines · 28/06/2015 08:11

Also, I think it's dishonest that the Tories won't put their cards on the table and admit that they are dismantling our country for ideological reasons.

To blame it all on Labour / benefit scroungers is manipulative in the extreme. They are using the global financial crisis of several years back now, as an excuse to implement policies they want to anyway, not to "make difficult decisions" as they would have us believe.

wigglylines · 28/06/2015 08:03

"is that just propaganda to justify the Conservative Government reducing the state?"

Of course it is.

May I remind everyone that Cameron's background is PR? He knows how to weave a story to manipulate / influence opinion. That's what PR is.

One of Labour's worst mistakes was to be so weak in opposition and to leave this myth largely unchallenged, so now so many people believe it to be true. "The mess that labour got us into" story was a huge factor in the tories getting in IMO.

STIDW · 28/06/2015 04:06

Did Labour really make a made a complete dogs dinner of it before the financial crash, or is that just propaganda to justify the Conservative Government reducing the state?

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/there-no-economic-reason-osborne-s-surplus-plan-it-s-time-labour-stopped-playing

Claims that Labour were overspending because they were running a structural deficit before the recession started were made, but budget deficits and government borrowings has occurred in nearly every year since records began.

After ten years of growth in 2007 Labour had a structural deficit of virtually zero at - 0.4% and also budget deficit of - 0.4% - OBR page 104.

budgetresponsibility.org.uk/wordpress/docs/junebudget_annexc.pdf

The last time Conservatives were in office had 18 structural deficits in 18 years and before all three recessions during 1979 - 1997. IMF

www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/02/weodata/weorept.aspx?sy=1980&ey=2012&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&pr1.x=92&pr1.y=13&c=156%2C158%2C132%2C112%2C134%2C111%2C136&s=GGSB_NPGDP&grp=0&a

According to the IMF the UK deficit increased because of a large fall in income and output caused by the global banking crisis.

touchstoneblog.org.uk/2011/10/19040/

Isitmebut · 27/06/2015 23:43

In May either Labour of the Conservatives were going to form the next administration.

People looked back at Labour's last 13-years, with £trillions to spend and a huge parliamentary majority to do EXACTLY what they wanted to do - and made a complete dogs dinner of it, BEFORE the financial crash.

The Conservatives inherited the dogs dinner structured economy and finances, which bore no resemblance to what they handed to Labour - so looking at Labour's record and their 2015 manifesto, voters gave them another 5-years.

Clearly the UK economy is recovering from the worst recession in over 80-years far better than any other economy in Europe that would have been beyond Labour's imagination as 2-years after the crash was just putting up taxes and hoped it would blow over - so would had to have made deeper cuts that the Conservatives by now, that they TOLD us they would do - usually BEFORE General Elections, (disingenuously) not DURING.

March 2010; ”Alistair Darling: we will cut deeper than Margaret Thatcher”
www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher

October 2013; “Labour will be tougher than Tories on benefits, promises new welfare chief”
www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/12/labour-benefits-tories-labour-rachel-reeves-welfare

“Rachel Reeves vows to cut welfare bill and force long-term jobless to take up work offers or lose state support”

August 2013; “Labour to substantially cut benefits bill if it wins power in 2015”
www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/aug/21/labour-to-cut-benefits-bill-2015

”Labour will cut the benefits bill "quite substantially" and more effectively than the Tories if it wins power in 2015, the shadow work and pensions secretary said on Tuesday”

”Liam Byrne, a Labour frontbencher, said the coalition's welfare reforms were failing to cut costs enough, and called for cross-party talks to "save" some of the government's key schemes.”

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 23:40

"Next time, you could try actually voting in the general election."

Of course I'm going to vote in the next GE. I'll be out campaigning to get these fuckers out too.

Sorry your point is?

Gemauve · 27/06/2015 23:13

But - for some of us - it is a nice to think it could be possible and gives a little glimmer of hope, for a milisecond or two.

Next time, you could try actually voting in the general election.

RedToothBrush · 27/06/2015 23:11

I once complained about a local campaign from the liberal democrats. They told me I was part of an orchestrated Tory campaign.

I was a bit pissed off as I would have voted Lib Dem that particular election, had they not decided to be muppets and failed to admit there was a problem with their OWN election strategy.

Squidzin · 27/06/2015 23:00

HIGH
FIVE

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:43

"You think the Queen would be swayed to dissolve parliament buy a petition?"

If - if - we were at the point where enough of the population signed this to make it viable, the country would have to be seriously pissed off with the government! This petition would be one of many ways th epeople made our voice heard.

Lobbying MPs for a vote of no confidence would likely be a more effective route, but if there was a petition with millions of signatures it would be a great demonstration of the people's will.

(Again, not saying this will happen! Just answering this point).

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:38

And it's nice to see the numbers build too and know there are like-minded people out there.

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:36

Or in short. No one seriously thinks that this will work.

But - for some of us - it is a nice to think it could be possible and gives a little glimmer of hope, for a milisecond or two.

wigglylines · 27/06/2015 22:32

" I find it quite sinister - just because you don't like the result you want to overturn the outcome of free and fair elections?"

Sinister how?

For a petition like this to work, would be totally unprecedented.

And there's no way anything like this would work unless a huge majority of the general population were on-side.

And if they were, it would be the will of the majority of the people, so democratic, not sinister.

Of course it's not going to happen.

What will happen - eventually - is that the voting public will wake up to the fact that the Tories do not have their best interests at heart, and that unless you are seriously rich or the shareholder of a corporation, voting for the tories is like being a turkey voting for Christmas.

When that point will be, no one can say now. But when it happens, this government will be voted out at a general election in the usual way.

People will be angry by then. Probably many of you who defend their policies now. Because, eventually what's as a result of tory policy happening will become impossible to ignore.

People are dying because of this government's policies. Children will grow up in poverty, people are losing out on the chance of secure jobs, and being made to work for benefits or become destitute.

Communities are being destroyed on a large scale, families split up. Emergency services and health care are being attacked, as are our schools, which are being sold off to the private sector by stealth. Nothing is being done to stop the rise of house prices, provide affordable housing or create new jobs.

The most vulnerable in our society are being punished for the crimes of the wealthy. Food bank use and hate crimes directed at disabled people are on the rise. The government are governing according to ideology, but they don't talk about it. They are not interested in evidence.

Justice is being eroded, they also want to take away our human rights and agree to secretive international trade agreements that will restrict our freedom of expression, due process, innovation, the future of the Internet’s global infrastructure, and the right of sovereign nations to develop policies and laws that best meet their domestic priorities, putting at risk some of the most fundamental rights that enable access to knowledge for the world’s citizens. (That last sentence is a quote from the link)

The safety net has huge holes in it now and thousands will fall through them. The government is handing over power and the nation's wealth to coorporations, through privatisation. We are sleepwalking into some kind of modern feudalism where corporations have huge powers to exploit us for profit, when we should instead be putting our heads together to tackle climate change.

Soon enough this will start to have an effect on enough people that the population realise that all the talk about benefit scroungers and austerity was a con. (The PM's background is P.R., FFS, doesn't that ring any alarm bells?!)

I just hope not many people have died or had their life chances wrecked by then, and we still have time to do something about climate change before it is too late, but I am not too hopeful.

So, are petitions like this unrealistic? If course!

But I sign it in the extremely slim hope that, should some event happen that reveals them for who they are, without doubt, and radically changes public opinion, we might have a head start in demanding their resignation!

LynetteScavo · 27/06/2015 22:28

You think the Queen would be swayed to dissolve parliament buy a petition?

You don't think that the Queen would vote Conservative if she were to vote and is probably perfectly happy with the current government?

Really?

nulgirl · 27/06/2015 22:19

Funny how we're being accused of being the Tory establishment because we pick holes in this barmy undemocratic and frankly petulant childish idea. I was actually one of the few people it seems who voted Lib Dem. I'm not thrilled about a Tory government but recognise that under our current electoral system they ARE the chosen government of this country.

hotlikeme · 27/06/2015 21:39

It just isn't going to happen. More people voted for the tories than for any other single party. Like it or not that is democracy.

HermioneWeasley · 27/06/2015 21:35

I really don't understand. The majority of people who could be bothered to vote, voted for the conservatives. A whole third of the country couldn't even be bothered to vote, suggesting they not massively fussed about the outcome.

That is democracy.

On what basis would you get them removed? I find it quite sinister - just because you don't like the result you want to overturn the outcome of free and fair elections? And who would you put in place?

Madness.

Squidzin · 27/06/2015 21:25

The Tory establishment lobby have arrived.
Should you be working so late on a Saturday?

If we (THE PEOPLE WE) lobby hard enough to get rid of Cameron, via queeny, if it is in her interest to pacify us and advantage her position I could see it working.

Queeny is German. I want Angela Merkel to run our government. Match-made.

Rekon they'd both be up for it you know.

nulgirl · 27/06/2015 21:05

What would happen in your completely unrealistic/ impossible scenario if another general election was called and the Tories won again. (Not an unlikely outcome as Labour are floundering without a leader and the promised cuts haven't taken affect. ). Would you just keep calling for a re-election until your favoured party was chosen. Have you heard of the term democracy?

If you feel that strongly about representation then you should be campaigning for proportional representation - but that brings with it the real chance of a Tory/UKIP coalition. Still sounding appealing?

Gemauve · 27/06/2015 21:04

We could argue for example that the Tory government has acted upon numerous policies that were not in the Tory election manifestos. These legislative changes therefore have no democratic mandate for implementation and could arguably represent a Coup d'état.

Do you know what any of those words actually mean?

Are you saying that a government can only, over the course of five years in office, enact policies and legislation that was in its manifesto? Do you have, like, a source for that claim?

The "it wasn't in the manifesto" was a popular claim by nutters as to why the same sex marriage legislation was "illegal". The argument is, of course, complete bollocks. Once elected, government can enact anything they can get through parliament. The issue of whether it was in the manifesto is one of the factors feeding into the use of the Salisbury Convention when there is deadlock on the second or third reading of a bill between the Commons and the Lords. That's all.

Gemauve · 27/06/2015 20:58

Christ, it's the the electoral equivalent of Freemen on the Land.

STIDW · 27/06/2015 20:56

No reason why people can't register their protest but the Royal prerogative doesn't work like that. There are many obsolete laws, for example the law permitting the killing of Scotsmen with a bow and arrow in York has never been repealed.

lexisweb.co.uk/content/some-strange-laws

Of course if someone did kill a Scotsman in York they wouldn't be able to rely upon that as a defence for murder!

Legally it has been long recognised that Parliament has the power to abolish, amend or restrict prerogative powers through an Act of Parliament. The powers fall directly within the jurisdiction of Parliament and Parliamentary scrutiny and control can be applied.

2old2beamum · 27/06/2015 20:51

Thanks wigglylinesand "Consent2trix* am so glad I am not alone!!

Squidzin · 27/06/2015 20:43

Who's asking for Labour??

Squidzin · 27/06/2015 20:16

Solidarity here.

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