Are Scots truly that Left Wing?

Support for independence declined to 20% during the height of what got called the Scottish Raj (by Alex Salmond amongst others), so I imagine that a good many Scots reckoned they had a sufficient voice in government to protect their interests.

Even back in the mid-90s it was 33% with some polls putting it in the 40s.

by contrast, the 2014 referendum couldn't have been held in conditions that suited the nationalists better. Tory-dominated government. Austerity. Tonnes of quantative easing (ie, virtual money-printing) which benefited only rich people, who mostly live in the SE. And an utterly, utterly lousy, totally negative No campaign. Yet, Yes still lost.

I would be astonished if the average SNP member didn't want independence. However, they make up only a fraction of the Scottish population. The noises Nicola Sturgeon seems to be making now is that the SNP will fight for reform within the UK if that is what Scots want. That all makes perfect sense. Why should the SNP keep on insisting on independence right now so soon after the referendum?

(BTW I wouldn't be surprised if Nicola Sturgeon genuinely did want Cameron back in No 10. If independence is your goal, the best result would be another 5 years of Tory government because of the resentment this will cause).

I find it interesting that the rise in popularity for independence coincides with the recession and DC's premiership. Before that, support was around 25% and briefly up to 35%.

The numbers swelled as people got more disillusioned with the CURRENT Westminster government, and became willing to throw away stability and hundreds of years of Union based on that, a union that many were quite happy with before, or quite complacent about before.

It now feels like the norm for many people to support independence, but it is a very recent thing for many people. I am amazed at how gung ho people have become about splitting up the UK. And it seems the immense optimism and faith in independence is based on immense cynicism and anger at the unionists (at least that is what the new 20% of independence supporters have based their thinking on, it seems. Maybe more die hard Indy supporters are different).

Of course the SNP want independence.

No one has said otherwise. You don't need to know an SNP MSP to figure that out. The ONLY way to become independent is to win a referendum. But there's no referendum planned is there?

The SNP have existed for a long time. They lasted 20 years between the first referendum and devolution. Then hung about for another 15 years for a referendum. They're playing the long game

Let's not pretend there's no desire for it. 45% of voters wanted it. That's a lot of people to ignore forever more wouldn't you agree?

Or 44.7% before someone chips in.

Wellthatsit I haven't moved on and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'll try and make the best of a shit situation though with DC at the helm.

Sorry, x post Scots

The thing is, whilst you say Independence is 'on the back burner' and 'still your ideal' that is fine. You can hold whatever opinions you wish (obviously) and it sounds like you are campaigning on some good stuff meantime.

The thing is, the SNP feel the same as you.
Independence is only 'on the back burner' for them too.
It is still 'their ideal' despite a clear mandate for NO from the Scottish People. They aren't representing the wishes of Scotland if they still aim for Independence. And, clearly, they do.

Of course there will be another referendum in time.

Keep your stickers on your car - it is 'your right'
but if SNP wont ever hold another Referendum, why would you bother?

And yes, of course there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I know two MSP's.
Both SNP.
Both are quite clear that the IndyRef only went NO because people were lied to by Westminster and that the Scottish people should be given another chance 'as soon as possible'.
Whatever Nicola says in public.

Absolutely moved on. Focussing on different things whilst independence is on the back burner. Fracking, local planning issues and my involvement with CND. I put a lot of energy into my yes vote. It was an exciting, liberating and powerful time for me. And just because the vote didn't go the way I wanted it to, independence is still my ideal.

Moving on doesn't mean pretending it didn't matter.

And agree with your last para Jackie. A good distinction to make.

Once in a generation - yes. That's what I meant. Thanks.

Alex Salmond said the Indy ref was a once in a generation opportunity, not once in a lifetime.

He's no longer the leader though.

There will be another Indyref. The only question is when. Before 2020 is probably too soon. But I can't see it being later than 2030. It depends on things like an EU referendum and the outcome of this and the next UK general elections and the next (2) Scottish elections.

I think with regards to the original question (left or right) we need to distinguish between social left/right sentiment (lots of Scots are more right wing re:social issues) but economically I'd say Scottish people are more left wing (tax the rich/ scandanavian style welfare system).

ROFL at Stacey's comment!

Scotswhahae and Blowin, if you still display your Yes posters and stickers, you're not giving the impression that you have moved on I am afraid.

Sturgeon might be saying that another referendum is the only way to independence. The trouble is, they also said the last referendum was a once in a lifetime event, but then started to hedge about that after the No voter I recall correctly.

Need to fix my a key

NS is after nother referendum because the Scots got the lst one wrong

My Yes sticker is still on my car, I have a right to still have it on. Still see other cars around with Yes stickers on their vehicles too.

Why are they stooping traffic? Campaigning for what?

I still have my poster up and my cars are adorned with their yes stickers. I've also moved on, as most active yes supporters have, to getting on with life and politics.

There is no possibility of independence through the back door. What do you think 'independence through the back door' actually means? It's not a thing.

I mentioned Nicola clarifying that because people seemed to think 'independence through the back door' was an alternative. She, and the SNP are crystal clear. The only way Scotland can declare independence is by winning a referendum.

What more do you want?

ROFL all you want

Yes, politicians talk shite but when someone categorically states (this was in her tour of Scotland after becoming first minister) that something that doesn't exist, isn't actually possible, it's hard to disbelieve!

We wont need another referendum in scotland

Once we've made our influence felt in Westminster , rUK will be desperate to kick us out . They will be begging us to leave

" better together " . Yeah right. As long as we stay in our box

ScotsWhaHae :

"The referendum was lost by the Yes campaign. We (the Yes supporters) have moved on, it would be great if everyone else did too."

Would you like to come and tell that to the folks in my village who still have their 'Yes' signs up, including a 10ft high one? Or the ones still stopping traffic and campaigning in a village along the valley?

As for:

'I heard that from in the flesh. Be in no doubt'.

You still believe, literally, what politicians say (and that they will keep to it)

????????????????

Not being rude but - where is a ROFL emoticon when we need one?

The SNP have a long term vested interest in destabilising the Union.

It's what it says on their tin.

There will be no independence through the backdoor. There is no back door.

I heard that from Nicola Sturgeon in the flesh. That message from the SNP is explicitly clear. Be in no doubt.

Having more SNP MP's means just that. Scotland already have seats, who we put in them is up to us.

The referendum was lost by the Yes campaign. We (the Yes supporters) have moved on, it would be great if everyone else did too.

Toad :

I agree with you about the 'drift to the right' over the last generation and that it needs addressing. The traditional Labour Party died with John Smith, sadly.

I also agree that:
"If the SNP want to use their numbers at Westminster to push the govenment in a more left-wing direction, that is their right as a bloc of Westminster MPs. Similarly, if they want to use their numbers to kick Cameron out of No 10, that is also their right. It is how the Westminster system works."
I concede that my 'frothing loons' comment, was, in itself, frothing!

I am just concerned at the motives of the SNP. I don't believe it is an altruistic attempt to move politics back from the right to give better left wing choices.
I think it is a further attempt to break up the UK. The SNP lost in Scotland at the IndyRef (despite some very shady tactics and some very vague economic proposals) yet they have not given up on Independence.
They will attempt to get it via the backdoor and to hell with the destabilising effect on the UK.

I think (certainly outwith the major cities) Scots are socially more traditional (or conservative with a small c) than most of the UK. However I do believe that the concept of 'a man's a man for a' that' holds true too. Despite the feudal landowning system that is only just being dismantled, I think most Scots now and historically have been less willing to doff their caps and more interested in the fair distribution of wealth throughout society.

I'd "like" that if I could, Toadinthehole. But I'd include Aberdeen as an important city too, given the oil industry.

Now I'm no fan of Scottish independence. Many of the key arguments put by the Yessers were so optimistic as to be lies, and the accusations of bias and scaremongering were nauseating.

But..

If the SNP want to use their numbers at Westminster to push the govenment in a more left-wing direction, that is their right as a bloc of Westminster MPs. Similarly, if they want to use their numbers to kick Cameron out of No 10, that is also their right. It is how the Westminster system works. Personally I very much welcome any SNP engagement with UK-wide politics. Nicola Sturgeon has very clearly stated that she, as the leader of the SNP, is on the side of those who want reform at Westminster. Good for her. Over the last generation, ethnic politics has taken too much of a grip, and has allowed an uncritical rightward drift. It is time we all kept our eyes back on the ball.

I don't think Scots are more left-wing. Certainly not in my experience. On a many social issues, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Scotland was a bit more conservative. It is probably more true to say that the South East is more economically right wing than the rest of the UK as a whole.

As for HS2, I don't see why it shouldn't start in Scotland. Britain's most northerly major cities are Glasgow and Edinburgh.

As for spending increases for Scotland - I don't see the problem with that either, as long as the additional tax required is raised in Scotland. I think that is what the SNP is probably advocating. Whether or not it will work is besides the point - which is that the SNP are not advocating some sort of zero sum game which means Scotland gains at the expense of the rest of the UK.

carol - the SNP plans re the 'vote of no confidence / another election' are properly scarey. Frothing loons!

I think Eck was happy to spend his way into the history books and to hell with future generations who would have paid dearly for his vainglory.

I hope that they don't achieve the destabilisation in Westminster they are so clearly hellbent on or the whole of the UK will suffer, not just Scotland.

Be interesting to see Nicola speak just before DC on tonights debate.

scots we have to stop running a budget deficit -we cannot borrow for ever, although where the break point is is hazy.
We cannot raise taxes because the very rich are very mobile, so efficiency savings are the only way.

Exactly, caroldecker - well said!

"Oil was not a bonus, the SNP planned to run a budget deficit after oil was included. The statement in your BBC link said that Scotland without oil had the same economic output as England, may be true, but SNP planned spending was higher than England, so oil was/is required to fund it. The truth is the SNP could not deliver thier independence promises with oil prices at the current level."