with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

Exactly Springheeled - Jews for Justice for Palestine were well-represented on Saturday and the speaker very well received.

Israel is also led by a government with an aggressive, unashamedly extremist agenda, which is why only one member of the UN supported it outright today.

The attack in France re the synagogue was not, in fact, as you report- rather, video shows members of the JDL (not really moderates...) acting aggressively towards the demonstrators.

No one I know who is marching or marched last week would walk with or near anyone with a swastika since usually we can be found protesting against the EDL, BNP and the like. If that's the case then that person or people would have had a very hard time from the rest of the crowd, believe me.

I'd like to see a link to that please sergeantmajor.

I was at a march on Saturday and there were no unpleasant elements, and no anti-Semitism whatsoever. Just people of many different backgrounds, united in condemnation of Israel's actions.

There's no elephant in the room, you and some of the other posters have repeatedly claimed that Hamas is responsible Israel's massacre of civilians. We here you - we just don't agree with you.

Err, actually Backinthering, the UN are investigating Hamas for war crimes too.

wordsmithforever - you're right, most compassionate people are marching against the deaths of children, regardless of which 'side' they're on. But these marches also attract some highly unpleasant elements.

These marches have been accompanied by assaults on jewish passersby in London, jewish people being herded and barricaded into a synagogue by a mob in Paris, swastika banners being paraded down the street and jewish businesses being smashed up.

This is a long long thread with very little discussion of the elephant in the room, which is that the Palestinians are being led by a government with an aggressive, unashamedly extremist agenda.

And I ask myself (not rhetorically, but actually)... why? Why is this left out of the discussion? Is it not a significant factor in the bloodshed?

Fwiw, I don't see this conflict as in any way unresolvable. Ceasefires have been laid on the table. In the past, treaties have been drafted. Both sides have inched closer to resolution. The vast majority of ordinary people just want to get on with their lives in peace and would accept a bit of flexibility from their ideal territorial positions as a fair exchange for peace. And that being the case, there should be every hope that this can come about.

ChairmanWow, I don't think there's anyone who thinks "there are no civilians in Palestine". I don't think this kind of exaggerated straw man argument really brings much to the discussion.

There is a perfectly valid case to be made that Palestinian children, civilians dying is tragic - it doesn't add to your argument but rather detracts from it when you attribute frankly ludicrous views to those you disagree with.

Calling those who criticise Zionism 'Hamas apologists' is beyond contempt. It plays back into the whole Zionist idea that there are no civilians in Palestine.

I went to a rally this evening and heard a doctor who worked in Palestine during operation Cast Lead speak. It was horrific.

And can anyone justify the illegal settlements and the de facto imprisonment of Palestinians in Gaza that has been ongoing since 2006? It's expansionism and it's genocide and people aren't singling this out because of anti-Semitism but because the West condones it and provides a terrorist state with the weapons it uses to kill children.

topbanana I'll check out the other post. But please, you don't have to tell me that Muslims face Islamophobia! Or that Jews face anti semitism, or any of those things thanks!

Well, it's not Hamas being investigated by the UN for war crimes:
www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2014/07/un-investigate-israel-offensive-gaza-201472316293283952.html

Springheeled - could you please reread my post as you appear to have managed to spectacularly misunderstand it. If you have never come across any cases of Muslims facing Islamophobia then you must live in a somewhat more tolerant country than the UK. If you missed reading spongeypop's posts on here, I strongly recommend you learn to use the search facility.

sergeantmajor - This isn't about Hamas, anymore than it is about Jews/Muslims or "religion". People are marching in supporting of 149 children killed and in support of ordinary Palestinian's basic human rights.

topbanana you said "I can overtly and specifically criticise British Jews "

I have seen people criticise supporters of Israel's killings and oppression. I haven't seen anybody criticise British Jews for being Jews

Be so kind as to point out where you have seen that.

Who on earth is saying that all Jews everywhere hate all Muslims everywhere or that all Jews are Zionist and all Muslims are terrorists? I haven't seen anything of the sort, except from those keen to support Israel's actions by a) howling anti Zionists down as anti Semites and b) suggesting or implying that as some civilians in Gaza elected Hamas, it's the Gazan's own fault if Israel attacks.

bakingnovice - stop "playing the jew card". Is that like rummy or something?

I'm not about to ignore people who make posts suggesting, as spongeypop did, that British Jews routinely post stuff on FB glorifying dead babies and hate speech about Palestinians. It is not accurate and is designed - IMO - deliberately to inflame anti-Jewish feeling against British Jews. Who have absolutely bugger all to do with the conflict. And have never hurt a hair on the head of any Palestinian man, woman or child, thank you very much.

I don't tell Muslims who are upset by people accusing them of being terrorists because of 9/11 and 7/7 that they should stop making "obsessive accusations" of Islamophobia. I stand by them (and have done so) against the bigots, and would expect all normal sane people to stand now against the bigots on this thread and elsewhere who seek to portray all Jews everywhere as enemies of all Muslims everywhere.

This is (a) profoundly unhelpful, given the current situation and
(b) profoundly untrue.

It seems clear to me that there are some on this thread whose main interest, whatever they claim to the contrary, is not to bring peace and understanding, but to increase hatred, conflict and bigotry.

I repeat, for the umpteenth time, especially to those accusing me of being "arrogant and without compassion" that on, the contrary, I firmly believe in the humanity of all people and that the route to peace lies through recognising our similarities not dwelling on our differences.

I think when people complain that I am "without compassion" what they actually mean is that I am too compassionate - because I dare to be compassionate towards the Palestinians AND the Israelis.

It doesn't have to be either/or.

It doesn't have to be and SHOULDN'T BE a fight for the death. We should be seeking a win-win solution (as the only long-term viable one), not a win-lose scenario.

Well sergeantmajor the funny thing is, Israel was treating the Palestinians like shit before Hamas.
And if you think Benjamin and co want Hamas gone in think you're probably very mistaken.

I am amazed at the apologists for Hamas.

I am not blaming the victim. I am blaming the evil regime that the Palestinian victims find themselves under. I don't see anyone here rushing to defend Hamas either.

I grieve and ache for the terrible loss of life, whichever side of the conflict it finds itself on. The tragic high numbers of Palestinian civilian and infant deaths does not and should not redeem Hamas. It is of added distate that their deaths should be used in mitigation for the movement.

Hamas themselves publicly and openly called for martyrs as human shields. They are not ashamed of themselves. They don't ask the Independent to apologise for them or to find individual detractors saying it's not true.

Why do you find it so hard to believe what Hamas themselves are shouting to the world? Hands up who wants to march in the street in defence of this little gem from the Hamas charter: "There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" ?

Makes me sad.

Link here
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

Claims of Hamas using human shields are a myth. It's Israeli propaganda so they can strike directly at the infrastructure in Gaza.

sergeantmajor that's great but what do you think about the 149 children? No mention of them in your post. Where does that fit into your lazy David/Goliath narrative?

Why is nobody in Britain protesting against the Hamas war crimes and crimes against humanity? Because it's 149 Palestinian children who are dead.

Is Hamas murdering innocent civilians?

Wow, the blame projection from apologists is unbelievable. It's like some kind of bizarre inverted victim hood. Israel obliterates a nation and not only blames the victim but expects the world's support and sympathy.

unrealhousewife words fail me. Your post sickens me. By the way, 'the Jews' (as you put it) are not doing ANYTHING. The Israeli govt and military are not 'the Jews', they are Zionists (which a great many Jewish people are NOT) and to oppose them is not to hate 'the Jews' but to be a sentient human being.

I think that Hamas numbers amongst one of the most brutal regimes of modern times.
They keep shooting rockets through ceasefires, aimed at civilians.
They publicly call for civilians to martyr themselves as human shields.
They publicly call for the annihilation of Israel.
They publicly execute the moderate voices of opposition within Gaza.
They build shelters for rockets but not for civilians.
They hold human life as cheap, both the Israelis' and that of their own Palestinian people.
I don't blame the Palestinians for electing them, as their elections were hardly a paragon of democracy.
Liberal British people and compassionate peace-loving people everywhere are prone to sympathise with the side that appears weaker. It's a lazy David/Goliath narrative. But Hamas is no friend of western values, of compassionate, peace-loving values.
I see little difference between Hamas, the Taliban, Isis and any of the other horrifying extremist movements that are the antithesis of liberal values. But suddenly they're the goodies...???
Why is nobody in Britain protesting against the Hamas war crimes and crimes against humanity? Where is the anti-Hamas demo by outraged anti-war protesters?

Yes israel please make up your mind. Either you are under attack or not. Get Regev on with Jon snow again so he make it clear what the status quo is.

Jews aren't 'doing this' ffs. Read the thread.

Unreal please educate yourself. The primary cause of blood loss is human shields? What were the children on the beach shielding exactly?

Actually no, your comment does not dignify a response.

springheeled: "funny how the Israeli govt are saying it's not dangerous to fly around their airspace or visit Israel and yet using the rockets that bounce right off their dome as an excuse for slaughtering kids"

Yes, this.