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Politics

Clegg v Farage Round 2

65 replies

WetAugust · 02/04/2014 19:01

Roll up for Part 2!

OP posts:
claig · 03/04/2014 16:43

' How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories. How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories.'

This is all bullshit. Capitalist propaganda by employers who want a cheap Labour pool.

"Thousands of job-seekers queued for THREE HOURS to land one of just 40 jobs at supermarket giants Aldi"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587293/Thousands-job-seekers-queued-THREE-HOURS-land-one-just-40-jobs-supermarket-giants-Aldi.html

People are desperate for work and a future. People apply for jobs as cleaners and in factories, but they are chasing jobs with hundreds applying for the same job.

This is what is really going on as people are exploited by gangmasters for the profit of some businesses. Pay a proper wage, with transport costs etc and tens of thousands of our youngsters willbe queueing up to work.

"Britain's new slaves: To millions of migrants, our streets seem paved with gold. But what awaits many is savage exploitation by gangmasters from their own lands"

An owner often looks like his dog — and Edikas Mankevicius is no exception to that rule.

Anyone who worked for him and did not meet with his approval would risk a home visit from the shaven-headed gangmaster and one of his rottweilers.

His approach was simple and terrifying. The front door of the workers’ overcrowded and flea-infested accommodation would be opened — or, as on one occasion, kicked down — and the dog released with the command in Lithuanian: ‘Attack.’

...

The workers were always Lithuanian because in that way he could control them much better,’ says Danielius.

The initial promises were attractive.

‘Mankevicius said he would get me a well-paid, stable job if I paid him £350 up front. I would then also have to pay £50 per week for my accommodation in Maidstone.’

Danielius says Mankevicius told him he would soon be earning around £500 a week — an enormous amount for a teenager from a country where the average monthly wage is barely more than that. Not surprisingly, he took the job.

Two matters were apparent from the start; the work was dreadful and once a worker had signed up, it was ‘almost impossible to quit’.

Danielius tells me about a typical day: ‘We would have to wake up when it was still night and travel in a van to some distant farm.

‘A team of ten to 11 people would work for two to three hours non-stop catching the chickens running free in a large shed. There could be thousands of them. It’s not that easy catching chickens. In the first months, my hands were scratched to the bones. I still have scars on my arms from chicken claws.

‘The supervisor would be screaming at you all the time and we would be beaten if he thought we worked too slowly or did something wrong.'

‘And all of us had fleas. It was disgusting. While you’re catching the chickens their fleas are jumping in your face and getting on your body. And you would be covered in feathers and s*.

‘But you wouldn’t be allowed to wash. After we would finish at the first farm, we would have to jump in the van and immediately go to another one.

‘We could travel like this for up to two days, across England, Wales and Scotland.’

The journey from one farm to another could take seven hours, says Danielius.

‘No one will pay you for that travelling time, give you food, provide accommodation or even a shower. We didn’t have face masks either.’

His agreed earnings were £3 per 1,000 chickens caught. On one farm, a good team could catch as many as 10,000 to 12,000 chickens, earning £30 to £36 each.

But if their efforts were not deemed sufficiently competent by their Lithuanian supervisors, the consequences were brutal.

‘The supervisor would be screaming at you all the time and we would be beaten if he thought we worked too slowly or did something wrong.

‘Once, one man smashed my face and broke my nose. Often, the guy would shout and assault us simply because he was in a bad mood or had been drinking.’

Danielius adds: ‘At those moments, you are trying to think about all the good things that used to happen to you in life; about home and how you could possibly change your life again.

‘But without knowing the English language, without friends or money — where do you go?

‘None of us was making money there. We were punished for every little thing, for no reason. Many of us even ended up in debt. We had no hope at all.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2533576/Britains-new-slaves-To-millions-migrants-streets-paved-gold-But-awaits-savage-exploitation-gangmasters-lands.html

niceguy2 · 03/04/2014 16:31

I agree that most of us don't want to see a common EU army. But we've been in NATO for a long time and that seems to have worked well.

It makes a lot of sense to collaborate on defence. Share designs and manufacturing (eg. Eurofighter). Like it or not we are reliant upon the US & EU countries ala NATO for collective defence.

I guess how we collaborate is the blurred grey area isn't it? Would a EU fleet of refuelling tankers be a good idea or bad? Because in theory it could save us all a lot of money to share stuff like that. But I do get that if we had to go defend the Falklands again then it could be a clusterfuck if other EU countries objected.

to have so many o its own hom-grown citizens languishing on benefits

You see this is my main point about whipping up fear about immigration. You assume that the reason these people are on benefits is because of immigrants coming and taking the jobs they'd have otherwise done.

But there are many other factors such as the fact our benefits system actively traps people into staying on benefits.

Too many of our 'home grown' citizen's don't value hard work anymore. How many times have we heard employers complain that they can't find workers to do the hard jobs like picking fruit, cleaning toilets or working in factories. Immigrants have filled those positions because our citizens think they're too good for those sorts of jobs.

How many of our citizens have left school with fuck all qualifications. Trying to compete for jobs increasingly complex and requiring much more skills than they have? Of course they don't think that it's THEIR responsibility that they aren't suitably qualified but that it's the government's fault for not getting them a job.

But hey, let's not examine the complex issues. It's much simpler to just blame the immigrants who by & large have come to this country to work damn hard, pay taxes, can't claim benefits and get on in life.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:28

' I think it would actually help to have a strong, united Europe telling him he can't just do as he pleases. What would be your solution?'

My solution is the same as Farage's. No false hope should have been given to the Western Ukrainians by the EU. Ukraine has nothing to do with us. It is in Russia's backyard and interfering risks potential war.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:26

"those are all arguments that were made when the US of A were created out of a bunch of independent states, and they've done pretty well for themselves!"

Yes, they have done very well. They are the world's Empire. But they all speak the same language and have the same culture. In Europe, we don't.
As Farage said, Europe is a wonderful place with different cultures, languages, food, architecture wherever you go. Homogenizing and forcing unity will fail because European peoples have different cultures, traditions, histories and opinions.

The French people will never accept control by an unelected elite of bureaucrats and they will be the ones who pull the house down. The unelected bureaucrats cannot control the French Samson forever.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:21

'Do you mean Russia's actions in the east, or the massive popularity of the very far right in the west?'

I mean what Farage said that the EU has given false hope to the Western Ukrainians who then toppled an elected President in Russia's backyard where its Black Sea Fleet is based. Everybody knew that Russia could not accept any threat to losing its fleet's port in Crimea.

The EU is weak, it is easily led as are teh small countries that make it up. Mistakes risk disaster. Farage said we must not have a common foreign policy because it is obvious where that would lead. We would inevitably "poke the bear" and small countries would not have any say in it, but would have to face the consequences.

claig · 03/04/2014 16:16

No, Farage is right.

The reason that people across Europe have turned to right wing parties is because the Euro is a disaster and the European Project, with its democratic deficit, is a disaster.

The rise of nationalism is a symptom of the disease and the disease is the democratic deficit and rule by an unelected, unaccountable elite.

Farage is saying, we must end Europe democratically, or the end result of the bureaucrats' policies will be a violent end to it against their wishes.

Farage is a true statesman. He dares say that the Emperor Has No Clothes and that the Empire will collapse. He challenges all of the bureaucrats who speak with the same voice over Ukraine, Syria, Putin, Libya and Europe.

Farage is the canary in the coalmine warning what will happen.

Farage was right about the Euro and he told Cleggy "thank God we didn't follow your advice".

Cleggy studied at he "College of Europe" in Brussels. He is not a statesman. He said that in "the modern world" we must "work together" in Europe to tackle "climate change" which "crosses border" and "criminals" who "cross borders". For those laughable things, the fool wishes to cede our sovereignty. He cannot see what lies ahead. Farage can see it and he is not scared to say it. He was right about the Euro and he is right about the EU and the disaster of where it will lead.

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 16:12

those are all arguments that were made when the US of A were created out of a bunch of independent states, and they've done pretty well for themselves!

now my vision may be unrealistic right now, that I can agree with. I don't think most people in Europe are quite ready to abandon their nationalistic points of view :-P

But maybe, just maybe, we could slowly work towards it, as long as it was done democratically, by the people, as you're saying.

about Ukraine: well, I certainly don't think the solution is to let Putin play out Russia's expansionist ambitions. I think it would actually help to have a strong, united Europe telling him he can't just do as he pleases. What would be your solution?

meditrina · 03/04/2014 16:08

"Are you not worried about what is happening in Ukraine?"

Do you mean Russia's actions in the east, or the massive popularity of the very far right in the west?

claig · 03/04/2014 16:06

I think France will end it.
I don't know when it will be, but I think it will collapse.

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 16:04

About the Juppé comments: well yes, he's saying that the problem is populist leaders arguing for nationalism, and that the worst possible thing it could lead to is a violent explosion of the EU.

So he's actually making the opposite argument to Farage!

claig · 03/04/2014 16:03

Are you not worried about what is happening in Ukraine?

Are you not worried that every leader thinks the same? They all boycott Russia in the Sochi games, they all use the same rhetoric.

Do you not see that most of them are not in control but are just followers. Small countries have to go along. Do you not see that a united common foreign policy would be dictated by the strongest and could lead to disaster against the wishes of the public in many countries in Europe?

It will eventually be doomed to failure, since only force could hold it together. Countries like France would never accept it for long. French people would revolt and revolts would spread across Europe and cause terrible problems as the Empire collapses, just as the Soviet Empire collapsed.

It is a system built for and by bureucrats, not for the people. The elite who created it will never allow people's voices to be really heard in a democratic way.

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 15:55

Oh yes, I agree that the lack of democracy and accountability is a huge issue. But to me the solution is not to give up on the EU, it's to try and fix it.

I'd like to see a politically united EU, not just an economic trade agreement, so I would actually be in favour of an EU army/foreign policy/etc. And I don't see any indication at all the EU would be an expansionist power? Certainly not with the Germans wielding the amount of influence they do, they've been down that path before and they know full well it doesn't lead anywhere good.

claig · 03/04/2014 15:51

"Europe is facing an ‘existential crisis’ that could end in violent revolution and war, the French foreign minister warned last night.

In the bleakest assessment yet of the euro crisis, Alain Juppe, a former French prime minister, said the spiralling debt crisis could trigger ‘the explosion of the European Union itself’.

Mr Juppe told the French news magazine L’Express that the deepening crisis was creating a dangerous breeding ground for violent nationalism, reminiscent of the 1930s.

He said: ‘This is an existential crisis for Europe that raises the spectre of a return to violent conflict on our continent."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2068533/Europes-debt-crisis-trigger-violent-revolution-war-warns-French-foreign-minister.html

claig · 03/04/2014 15:48

I agree, Europe is a fantastic place. The economic side is a disaster with the Euro. Hollande is the most unopular French President in history and the economic situation is partially to blame for that, and in Spain, Greece, Ireland, Portugal and even Italy, the economics are bad.

It is really about democracy. The EU is a superstate and European peoples have no real democratic control over it. At the moment, it is still weak politically because the unaccountable leaders have not yet been able to fully integrate it, but if and when they do, it is likely that it will be in an expansive mood that will run into conflict with Russia, as we are beginning to see with Ukraine etc.

I think that Farage is right when he said if the EU does not end democratically, then it may end violently and that will cause major problems and spread all over Europe.

The unaccountable elites want to force integration, but that goes against the will of the peoples.

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 15:38

I just like the idea of it, I think it's a beautiful project! The way I see it, we don't realise how much we have in common culturally and historically, kind of like siblings who are always squabbling but are still family.

For me the economic side is just an added benefit, not the main thing. I wouldn't mind paying extra taxes to be a member of the club (maybe I already do!).

Feel free to tell me I'm hopelessly idealistic Grin

Marine Le Pen wants to leave the EU and go back to the Franc, of course. Before her the FN was a party of racist extremists and holocaust deniers, and she's done a great job cleaning it up and making it look more acceptable. Hers is the only major party that would ever consider leaving the EU, though.

claig · 03/04/2014 15:23

That is good to hear, chacha23. Grin
Why do you like the EU? Does Marine le Pen want to leave or just renegotiate? What about her views on the Euro too?

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 15:15

claig, if it makes you feel better, they are definitely less and less happy with the EU! (sadly for me ;-)

WetAugust · 03/04/2014 15:14

The notion that without immigrants from the EU that we'd suddenly all have jobs is simply fanciful.

Yes, I agree it is fanciful. But it's also crazy for this country to have so many o its own hom-grown citizens languishing on benefits because they do not have the skills that employers require, so the employers recruit from the wider EU.
Years ago employeres would take someone, usually a young person, who had few skills and would train them. The training budgets in most organistaions have withered away, as they can just 'import' people with teh skills they need. That does not benefit the lowly skilled domestic unemployed. Hence I get on a bus driven by a Polish bus driver to eat a meal at a restaurant where I'm served by a Slovakian waitress and the taxi driver home is Croatian. All entitled to work in this country and all working very hard in jobs with anti-social hours. But you cannot deny that they are also taking the sort of jobs that could be done with some upskilling of the unemployed domestic population.
So immigration is good for employers, but not so good for those who are in direct competition for the type of work the non-Bristish EU workers are undertaking.

Also if the EU is such a bad thing. Then why have so many countries flocked to join and want to join. Look at Ukraine. They're literally spilling blood for the chance to join in the future.

Not Crimea. It voted to align itself with Russia. The EU is only popular with the rump of Ukraine because it's not Russia. They will soon realise who dictatorial the EU can be.

Scotland definitely wants to join if they become independent

For the EU handouts.

and Wales wants to stay in the EU too.

I haven't seen a poll of the Welsh on that subject.

So why oh why are we so keen to get out?

For the reasons that makes Britain such an attractive place to emigrate to - our sense of 'fair play'. We do not like being told what to do by an an undemocratic, unelected body that has a toothless Parliament (as Kinnock admitted) that cannot make decisions - only ratify those made by non-elected bureaucrats.

We don't want to funnel 55M a day of UK tax-payers money into an organistaion whose accounts are so poor the auditors have refused to sign them off.

We don't want to be part of an organisation that aspires to have its own defence policy and the force to implement it. We don't need it, we have Nato. Try defending the Falkands when you have to rely on the EU for the means to do so. They wouldn;t even sell us the bullets the last time.

We don't need to be part of an outdated protectionist organistaion that prevents us from making our own trade deals with other countries and to be free from the EU retsrictions and tarrifs it imposes on imports from outside the EU.

It's s form of communism. We pay in and other countries take out. Why - because we are told they are our 'partners' and everyone within in this group should be brught up to the same standard. So we are effectively subsidising countries that should be our trading competeitors. That makes us uncompetitive.

I could probably think up another 10 good reasons.

OP posts:
claig · 03/04/2014 15:08

Yes, you are probably right there, Chacha23.
I was getting carried away hoping that the French wanted to leave like many of us do. Smile

Chacha23 · 03/04/2014 15:01

That's a bit of a generalisation claig. The French are getting much more critical of the EU, but if there was a referendum in France today for the EU or the Euro, they would still decisively vote to stay in. They don't want to leave, they want reform.

Personally I feel very European rather than just French. I'd be happy with a democratic federalist EU. I realise that's a very uncommon feeling in the UK, though!

Isitmebut · 03/04/2014 14:56

Niceguy2….Like most people my age, we were for a Common Market but had no idea it would morph into a Federal Europe – and what many don’t understand now, is that after the financial crash, the EU’s answer is to integrate/standardise more – so a referendum on Treaty changes currently set in UK legal stone, could happen soon anyway. IMO..

My main problem is the sheer size, regulation and inefficiency of the EU, which may be fine if trading amongst yourselves and equally handicapped, but in a global market place where we are competing with the likes of China, without all those expensive handicaps (or funding of a welfare/benefit economy no matter how desirable), they will always have a pricing advantage of their goods, over Europe.

Get rid of the expensive and regulatory drag and allow a two-speed Europe, where we stay out of the Eurozone, remain the main financial centre, but still have influence within, and I’d vote stay in.

P.S. While you may think immigration is fine when we had such high unemployment figures in 2004, I do not, as action was needed to both make work pay and train people for existing jobs back then, as all the domestic social issues that resulted i.e. over 1 million 16-24-years olds by 2010 and extra housing needs, can not compensate for extra GDP gowth back then.

claig · 03/04/2014 13:54

It is also the big, powerful countries that have populations and some politicians who do not want to accept our laws being made by unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats. It is smaller countries that often have no choice, but the large countries are no longer prepared to cede their sovereignty and accept a democratic deficit.

claig · 03/04/2014 13:51

'So why oh why are we so keen to get out?'

Because we are net contributors who are paying for the bust countries like Ukraine who want to enter. It is big countries like the UK and France who have populations and parties that increasingly want to leave.

niceguy2 · 03/04/2014 10:57

Great.....so Clegg's utterly bolloxed his own party and now seems to be doing a good job at bolloxing our chances of staying in the EU.

Sure I totally get that the EU isn't perfect but I hate the theme that 'mass immigration' has been the blame for our modern economy.

Immigration as a whole has benefitted us way more than the drawbacks. The notion that without immigrants from the EU that we'd suddenly all have jobs is simply fanciful.

Also if the EU is such a bad thing. Then why have so many countries flocked to join and want to join. Look at Ukraine. They're literally spilling blood for the chance to join in the future. Scotland definitely wants to join if they become independent and Wales wants to stay in the EU too.

So why oh why are we so keen to get out?

Isitmebut · 03/04/2014 01:03

I watched this second debate and thought it was ‘a game of two halves’, with Farage easily winning the second and had a very strong finish/summary.

In my opinion although both had problems answering the questions directly, Clegg was far worse.

Furthermore Clegg is a perfect example of the pro European’s that mentally (and practically) have signed up to the ‘EU project’, but can only look at the big picture, the means to an integrated European end, so chooses to ignore the daily problems of ‘the people’ getting there.

Farage on the other hand, is v.good at stating the bleedin’ obvious, on issues that worries the ‘the people’ on the sharp end of ‘the project’ accentuated by the worst recession in 80-years; less jobs, homes and public services – which allows him to answer those questions honestly, while Clegg (or any Europhile) can only try to change the subject - which ‘the people’ spot immediately, hence Farage’s lead.

If Clegg could never have answered the people fears directly, he should never have challenged Farage and proved that politicians have no answers to negative social issues connected with staying ‘in’.

Clegg is not finished, those who insist we stay in throughout Europe KNOW there are no answers to the likes of open door immigration, so unless Europe changes (which I believe in key issues like open borders it will) Clegg will just be seen as an outrider, taking one for the ‘project EU’ team.

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