The Labour Party....really?

Well this has turned into exactly what Bechuana girl expected , I am sure, very few examples of why people support labour but rather reasons why they don't support Tory. Not supporting the Tories is not a reason to vote Labour. the question was why vote labour not why not vote tory.

A very relevant question as labour are idiots, who pander to the masses to get their votes so they can nanny them. labour who claim to be liberal but are eroding all our freedoms for the sake a being liberal . Why not vote independent, or green, or ukip, or anything else..... really. Why labour?

Personally I think we should all vote for an independent candidate in the next election, it doesn't even Matter if you like them, just make a stand that the current options are crap and we don't want any of these idiots in charge.

(Should have said, Debswana runs all the diamond mines in Botswana. The OP of course already knows that.)

Is this some kind of wind-up?

Botswana was founded on semi-socialist principals.

Debswana, the primary source of Botswana's wealth, is a joint venture between De Beers and the Botswana govt.

The country's other major mineral source, the copper-nickel mine at Selebi Phikwe, is owned by Bamangwato Concessions Ltd, which is wholly owned by the government. The mine has been kept in production at a loss during various dips in the copper price, because of its long term importance to local employment and to the economy.

And because of the paucity of other industries, government employment is a huge portion of the economy. That good old socialist principal of providing universal, good quality, state education has been a government priority for decades - the country's gone from a standing start in 1966 to 83% adult literacy in 2008. I notice they introduced school fees in 2006 - so the OP will have grown up under free education.

As for dissing the NHS? Ahahahaha! I'm not claiming it's perfect but seriously, compared to Botswana? You're 'aving a laugh.

The public health system in Botswana is admirable in the circumstances but light years from the NHS. Actually private health care was, too, 20 years ago (don't know about now). People used to travel to South Africa for anything complicated like, you know, mammograms, because private facilities in Botswana just couldn't provide.

BechuanaGirl
I don't give too hoots about persuading you to support any political party
In true DM reader fashion I do not believe anything would persuade you

I just wanted to point out how many more 18-24 yo voters chose Labour.
With introduction of university fees many young voters hate Libdems and Tories. That would hunt them for many years.

Tiredemma - interesting that there are twice as many DM/Express readers taking part in that survey as readers of any other paper - which tells us something about the ideologies of those people before they answer any questions...

Most recent YouGov poll put labour with 6% lead over Conservatives- so if we had to vote tomorrow- it looks like the Labour party would 'win'.

Which I think says a lot about how people view the Tories 'austerity' tactics.

cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/70hquetduc/YG-Archive-Pol-Sunday-Times-results-131220.pdf

Oh yes Tiredemma, thank you for reminding me! The Tories couldn't even win despite the "mess" that we'd been left in.

AND PLEASE-

do not forget that at the last General Election they w not voted in by the electorate- they required propping up by the Liberal Democrats (something im sure the Lib Dems will go on to regret as they will be fucked over by their previous electorate at the next GE)

They are NOT a Govt voted in by the 'Majority' vote in GB. Remember that when you spout off about how great they are.

They are bastards. Tory swine bastards.

Everything custard said, you couldn't have put it better.

TheGreatHunt The NHS? really that's your demonstration of Labour's progressiveness? The system frequently considered the worst in Europe? I've found a few policies actually worth talking about that labour introduced, and the NHS isn't one of them

Are you actually being serious? Or just trying to cause a ridiculous, pointless argument?

Re the nationalised vs privatised industries just look at rail. The train operator requiring the lowest subsidy is the East Coast Line, currently run by...the government.

Look at how many foreign governments which now have major stakes in our utilities. They belonged to us until neocontards stole them from us and gave them away to asset strippers and made them worse.

We now have a debt based economy, unlike after WW2 when we actually made stuff and the gap between rich and poor narrowed. Yes, I know, strikes etc, but how else but through withdrawal of labour are those with the least supposed to exert influence? This government of kleptocrats is stealing from those least able to fight back, and we will all suffer long term.

Oh but "people" say it doesn't work.Then it's true then.

You do know that there are more Panda's in Scotland than Tory MP's. What does that tell you about history op?

Do your research and don't rely on anecdotes and the daily mail for "facts" like most Tories

The NHS is one of the best healthcare systems in the world. We only ever hear of its failings because, and listen carefully, good news rarely makes headlines.

As I said, go and read up on what it was like before the NHS. Look up why it was introduced in the first place.

It's expensive because of various reasons not because it's failing ffs.

As for the bank bailouts - the Tories supported it. They also supported the move to make the Bank of England independent and other market reforms.

The Tories are good at spin and downright lies. If they're so great, why do they need to bullshit so much? Hunt, Gove, Cameron, IDS, Osborne.,... Each of them has lied.

actually the conservatives ( and the previous labour govt) undermined the nhs by backdoor privatisation.

labour were in charge when the economy collapsed - this is true - their failing was to not force more regulation on the banking industry
HOWEVER, the conservative govt at the time wanted LESS regulation for the banking industry

regarding nationalisation of industry - you just have to look at the rail debacle fiasco fuck up - we are pissing well paying for it anyway again and again and again.

at some point if all the people at the top take everything from the people at the bottom - there will be nothing to take

the conservative government are not trying to fix the problem, if they were they would collect the 40 billion in taxes that corporations owe this country

they wouldn't give contracts to their friends and talk talk talk about payday loan companies whilst not doing anything about it becuase they recieve HUGE contributions from fucking Wonga.

the conservative party are persecuting the poor, they are literally starving people. this country can well afford to look after the less well off if the proper taxes were collected, yet the tories are pushing an ideology on the back of austerity

austerity my arse when they refuse to collect this money from big corporations that would absolutley look after the sick and the disabled in this country - they are not interested in doing that AT ALL.

they are interested in profit - profit for themselves, profit for their chums

We paid for ian duncan smiths underpants for fucks sake.

you can't boil it down to a simple statement of 'socialism doesn't work' when it is clear that capitalism doesn't work either ...hence the banking crisis

we are proping up capitalism - WE the people are.

the current political system, where we do not look after the most vulnerable in society in favour of paying for ian duncan smiths £39 breakfast, letting Ian duncan smith spout utter bile about benefit fraud, yet he committed benefit fraud, whilst letting people like Ian duncan smith pay his wife to do fuck all, with OUR money, it is a joke.

where the conservatives put in place a system where people work for benefits - in an economy where 4 people are going for every job - people need a job that pays a wage - and they are fewer becuase now WE THE PEOPLE are PAYING companies to take on people for FREE - these companies, lots of whom have ties with the conservative government.

the conservative government who isn't stimulating the economy, the conservative government who are perpetuating the insane boom and bust cycle with the help to buy scheme ( which will come to fruitition around the time of the next election) it might get them in power again ( god help us all) but this is so short sighted for the country as a whole.

but this is the party who voted AGAINST a debate - just a debate on foodbanks, the welfare of the people of this country are not a concern.

the education of the children in this country are not a concern, it it were there wouldn't be education on economies of scale, forcing schools to merge into huge acadamies so that the cost goes down. superficial fucking about with the names of exams whilst providing fuck all support for teachers and no investment in education.

something must change, there must be something inbetween the greed of 99% of politicians on both sides who serve nothing but their own interests

how is it that these very rich people on 80+ K a year ( plus consultancy and outside interest monies) can claim for their heating, lighting, underpants, food, cleaners non existant secretaries - YET people starve

it's just not right, its not,

I just don't understand the argument BechuanaGirl that the NHS does not work. If this was the case why has the number of people choosing private health care in the UK , which is readily available, not increased substantially.Having worked for the NHS for years and now living in Oz where I pay through the nose for healthcare including children's health, I know which system works best.

I assume people who complain about the NHS don't use it, keeping the services available for those who are content with it.

I think it's very naive to compare the need for home grown industry in a population of 2.1m to a country with 63m.

I think it's also naive to assume that poor people simply need to become richer without addressing the divide. When poor people become richer, so do rich people and so the inequality continues - or increases.
As for the reasons, currently, I would suggest that this country needs a strong opposition - one which is capable of taking the next election. The coalition has continually passed legislation which was not part of either parties manifestos ( and as a result, not mandated) - the NHS reforms have made changes which can't be changed back.

In terms of labour - labour introduced legislation such as comprehensive and open university giving access to the entire population, equal pay for women, legalisation of abortion and homosexuality, national minimum wage, pensions, race relations and discrimination.

I'd also suggest that employment figures based on zero contract hours are very different from employment figures where people earn consistent wages. That having international businesses setting up shop is good if they pay taxes and pay wages: not if they don't pay taxes and want staff available without the responsibilities of having staff.

But mostly, why do we need to persuade you? If you don't want to vote labour, don't vote labour. Thankfully, this isn't a one party country yet.

I think in order to educate yourself about why people vote Labour (or Conservative for that matter!) you need to read lots after this thread gets filled up

Have look at his article. I think it is a good starting point.

What would the conservatives have done instead of Brown's bailout?

Also you're wrong when you say that the nhs is considered crap "generally by people". Yes people moan about it sometimes but generally those with more than an iota of intelligence recognise it to be brilliant.

"People vote for themselves, don't they."

Do you have a universal healthcare system in Botswana? Or do you have a system like the USA where you have to pay, either through insurance or other means?
My dad lives in the US and his partner suffers an array of health problems. Her medical costs have financially crippled her. She can no longer use the ER as she can't afford the rising insurance or the upfront bill each time.
However - if I have a health problem, I go to my doctor. It costs me nothing apart from maybe £8 for a prescription. When my dad's partner had an A&E admission this year, it cost her $3000.