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Politics

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FRACKING

134 replies

bonnyclark · 06/09/2013 19:57

My husband and I are very much against fracking, we have been down to Balcombe a few times to support the protest. My husband is a published songwriter and has donated a power protest song, called 'We Will Never Surrender', (Published by World Domination Music Ltd), all profits going towards the fight against fracking. You can download this song at www.nelsonking.bandcamp.com/track/we-will-nver-surrender
If you go into 'Fracking at Balcomber', you will see just how serious the situation is, and how much damage is being done to the planet. If we dont stop this 'assault', our children will never forgive us.
Thankyou.

OP posts:
flipflop21 · 14/03/2014 21:50

Shale gas will not make any difference in the short term to any up and coming power outages. It's all very well saying if we had done such and such in 2005 we wouldn't have this problem now. Fracking will not solve that problem so I reiterate my question - what will?

Regarding fracking tax receipts and national debt - in your opinion how much risk to human health does there have to be to make it a risk not worth taking?

For example how happy would you be for example for a flare to be burning 24 hours a day just a km from your home? Flaring can result in a number of toxic chemicals being released into the atmosphere. There is a risk of high levels of plyacromatic hydrocarbons, sulphur di-oxide and soot particles. There are no emission limits in the permits and the oil/gas company doing the drilling only spot sample for a few chemicals. There is also no restriction on how close they can drill to residential areas.

Whilst some see pound signs, the realities of shale extraction - not the media hyped up version, the up close and personal experience of onshore oil/gas exploration is not a positive one.

Can you understand my concerns?

Isitmebut · 14/03/2014 12:35

Flip-flop…back to your 10th March 22;22 post; so let me immediately make one thing clear, I am not expecting the Uk to either worry about, or actually supply, Europe in shale gas. In basic numbers, never mind EU gas CONSUMPTION, as the UK roughly consumes around HALF of the entire EU PRODUCTION, their energy prices and security can not be our concern.

And lets remember that the UK is not the only country sitting on shale energy. Russia unfortunately is also rich in shale gas, BUT China and the U.S. are likely to become the largest shale EXPORTERS, with Argentina and Mexico fairly close behind, but quite how that can be piped to Europe, again that is not currently our concern, but will help keep a lid on market prices/volatility.

But in the context of your post 10th March , just taking the U.S. as an example of what we could do domestically, they are first satisfying domestic demand (and security) before exporting shale gas – with the following (I’m sure arguably) positive repercussions mentioned in the link below.

“How the U.S. shale boom will be felt around the world”
www.cnbc.com/id/101416763

I’ll get to MARKET PRICES and storage in a moment, but the security of UK GAS supplies clearly is our problem, especially when we consider our usage in split into 3 roughly equal sectors; our electricity generation, our domestic/heating uses and our Industries – all nationally imperative to our daily lives, especially as electricity power ‘outages’ are already due within a few years, or the first severe/prolonged UK winter.

For the sake of my argument, lets assume that the estimated figures on shale gas reserves are correct and the 10% recovery statistic is correct. The UK apparently has 1.300 trillion cubic feet of ONSHORE shale gas (just across 11 counties, never mind the rest) and if only 10% of that is recoverable, on back-of cigarette packet calculations, that is around 50-years of OUR needs. And that is without the OFFSHORE shale gas, potentially estimated to have reserves several times our proven onshore reserves.

Safety of lifting the (fracked) gas aside, why would we choose not to get both the energy and economic benefits of shale energy, while other countries blessed with the ‘stuff’ see all the domestic potential benefits and start exploration/lifting? Storage of 30, 60, or even 90-days gas supplies MAY protect us from short term energy ‘shocks, but storage will not protect us from medium to long term upward price trends.

To expand on my storage view, I’ll reiterate an earlier point, in an already ‘tight’ energy market, most country gas producers to my knowledge are not sitting on huge excess capacity that can be turned up at a moments notice, so the majority of their ‘product’ has been bought (possibly months before in the Futures markets) in fixed quantities and fixed prices. So in an energy ‘shock’, that can last for years as a threat or event, there is a bun fight for any spare energy e.g. gas, just as the price has rocketed (remembering markets ‘discount’ good or bad news into a price often several months ahead).

And currently whether we doubled our storage or not, the UK (as an importer) has to join that bun fight and pay whatever they have to,

Now you could rightly turn my earlier information back on me and say, let the other countries exporting shale gas stop the price rises, but that can no more be relied on than say OPEC, meeting and then collectively lowering the amount of oil lifted to maintain an oil price ‘around $90 to $110 that they consider both protects the countries within with higher production costs, and is ‘fair’ to all. And the richer the emerging countries become, the more energy their populations will need/consume, putting further upward pressures (that currently doesn’t exist) on energy prices.

Finally, I agree shale gas will not solve our energy problems now, but IMO whether financially or practically, with electricity outages soon, we have left it far too late to explore and nationally invest in ‘alternatives’, as no decisions were made when we HAD the money and time.

If we had acted on policy statements around 2005, we would be on schedule to replace nuclear energy in 2015 to STOP those outages, rather than having just started on them. If as a nation in the 2000’s we would have made less profligate 'fat government' choices and invested more time and money in renewables, one again we would also be tapping that energy now.

Instead we are heading for £1,500,000,000,000 (£1.5 trillion) of national debt by 2015, and in the likelihood of an anti business Labour administration coming in until 2020, the ONLY way of reducing the interest on that debt, never mind the principal amount, is by business profits/growth, spending cuts, and/or tax rises. Isitmebut is it a stretch to see under Labour lower business growth, less spending cuts and more taxes?

This to my mind puts the final nail in national renewable energy investment and makes the fracking tax receipts and energy supply/security, for all businesses and consumers, somewhat of a national necessity.

Isitmebut · 13/03/2014 18:20

Flipflop…I was going to answer your previous post, but ended up answering a potty-mouth on another thread first, which is strange because I I usually respond better to nice/polite people, especially if talking about one of my favourite subjects, how markets react.

While I’m now on your other post, let me quickly comment on your last one, and I’m sorry to disappoint you, as European leaders themselves are already pushing the agenda to wean themselves off of Russian gas on energy security grounds, but it is likely to mean pushing back on climate clean energy policies.

Poland, historically used to Russian aggression is more than concerned that the leading power within the EU folded so easily on Putin’s territorial grab, and with an estimated shale gas reserve of 25% that of the U.S., note their new policy below.

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-11/putin-opens-up-europe-s-energy-fault-line-along-oder-neisse.html

“Vladimir Putin’s play to wrest control of Ukraine is accentuating divisions in the European Union over how to balance climate and energy policies, driving a wedge between Germany and its eastern neighbor Poland.”

“The German-Polish split underscores a broader dilemma over the direction of Europe’s $13 trillion economy and the energy model that powers it. Merkel is focused on cutting pollution and closing German nuclear reactors, consuming more Russian gas in the process. Tusk, more concerned with energy security, is pushing coal and atomic power, and yesterday backed a law to speed up hydraulic fracking to get at domestic hydrocarbons.”

“Germany and Poland in many ways represent a fault line when it comes to defining Europe’s future energy mix,” William Pearson, London-based director for global energy and natural resources at the Eurasia Group, a political-risk consultancy, said in a March 7 telephone interview. Both, he said, “enjoy the support” of other EU nations.”

flipflop21 · 12/03/2014 22:38

Just found this and thought I'd air it Isitmebut. I thought it was good..

"The political objective of a new European energy security strategy does not have to be a question of cutting off Russian gas supplies, but rather of achieving a level of flexibility that could allow the EU more choice of energy supply and greater resilience against conflicts in neighbouring countries. If the European Union had such a strategy and the resolve to implement it, it would have moved half way down the road to full energy security."

blogs.independent.co.uk/2014/03/12/europe-can-wean-itself-off-russian-gas/

flipflop21 · 10/03/2014 22:22

Isitmebut . You have provided me with a clearer picture of the relationship between Russian gas and Germany and other countries now.

There are alternative perspectives to the Telegraph regarding the threat from Putin:

uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/08/ukraine-crisis-gas-europe-idUKL6N0M50BK20140308

www.policymic.com/articles/84677/to-understand-what-s-really-happening-in-ukraine-follow-the-gas-lines-on-this-map

One thing though Isitmebut, I'm struggling to see how the amount of shale gas the UK could produce, particularly in the next ten years or so will make a difference to the volatility of prices.

The UK would produce the gas and then sell it to the highest bidder on the EU market. In order to replace the 30% share Russia has of the European market and the additional percentage produced by the Middle East, we would have to produce vast amounts. If it takes 100,000 wells to be drilled to provide only a fraction of the UK's requirements - how many wells will need to be drilled make a dent in the EU market? We haven't got the same geology or space as the US. Proposed drillings sites are virtually on people's doorsteps and these people are not protected from the impact of this industry - blowouts, flaring, spillages, truck and tanker movements etc, let alone the other risks people are concerned about. These are risks that are definately there and the risk is increased due to the number of wells required and the proximity of these wells to homes and communities.

Increasing storage would have a far more immediate benefit and less detriment.

Consider the alternatives - if we invest elsewhere within the same time span what else could we be using to reduce our dependency on gas from Russia and the Middle East? Fracking is not an immediate result and even at full production there is only the potential to meet a percentage of the UKs needs, let alone denting the EU market.

Isitmebut · 08/03/2014 01:30

Hot off todays press.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10684333/Putin-mocks-the-West-and-threatens-to-turn-off-gas-supplies.html

I reiterate, whether he does or not, markets have to price in 'risk' and buyers have to judge when they jump in and build up future supplies/inventory, as this ex USSR State (Ukraine) , and the two or three others over the past few years e.g. Georgia, could just be the start of ex KGB Putin's nostalgia of bringing countries back into the fold and flexing Russian international muscles, like the 'good old days'.

I think Thatcher said many years ago something along the lines of 'rely on Russian energy, over my dead body'. Well it should not be lost on Cameron that whether we buy it direct or not, Thatcher has indeed gone and this country has to 'rely' on mad Russian political whims influencing energy prices.

Isitmebut · 08/03/2014 00:56

Flipflop21…..your point on Russian market share is a moot point according to a Wiki source, depending on your EU residence receiving 5% or 100% from Russia, but whether they supply a total of 30,40, or 70% of a huge volume of EU gas, or whether they turn the several pipelines off or have the ability to threaten - it gives them huge political influence e.g Germany’s reluctance to lead the EU economic sanctions – and the ongoing supply/price risk to Europe (and UK competing in those same markets) of replacing all that gas.

According to the European Commission, the share of Russian natural gas in the member states' domestic gas consumption in 2007 was the following:[3]
• Estonia 100%
• Finland 100%
• Latvia 100%
• Lithuania 100%
• Slovakia 98%
• Bulgaria 92%
• Czech Republic 77.6%
• Greece 76%
• Hungary 60% • Slovenia 52%
• Austria 49%
• Poland 48.15%
• Germany 36%
• Italy 27%
• Romania 27%
• France 14%
• Belgium 5%

Your point on ‘current’ prices in a potential ongoing gas supply bun fight means very little as energy companies tend to buy via fixed price contracts and/or in the Futures Market, so apart from what we can store here, it will depend when companies HAVE to buy and/or their ability to buy at the lows, not the highs.

Lets remember when Labour came in to power around the late 19990’s WTI oil was around $20 a barrel, but several years later it hit $147 a barrel and settled in the $95 to $105 range, if memory serves – these prices are not gossip, they trade on exchanges and the records are there.

So how you can say ‘it is not true’ when based on that link on the other page mentioning exchange markets rose and then fell 25% in a short time, totally escapes me.

“The futures tumbled 25 percent last week, capping the biggest one-week drop since 1996 and the first monthly decline since September. Prices reached $6.493 on Feb. 24, the highest intraday price since Dec. 2, 2008.”

I reiterate, those are real price moves, they can both move with similar volatility and affect related markets at any time ( see blow), this is not "scaremongering", markets don’t WAIT for ‘stuff’ to happen, they have to price risk in, both in the ‘spot’ market’ and futures prices.

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-07/ukraine-crisis-could-boost-lng-prices-if-gas-supply-threatened.html

“A disruption of natural gas supplies to Europe by an escalation of Russia’s military action in Ukraine may boost LNG demand and prices in Asia and South America, according to Societe Generale SA and Morgan Stanley.”

“Russia, which provides Europe with more than a quarter of its natural gas mainly though Ukraine, has cut supplies twice since 2006. While the current crisis hasn’t interrupted exports, liquefied natural gas prices will “move through the roof” if flows transiting Ukraine are stopped, said Thierry Bros, an analyst at Societe Generale in Paris.”

As for how much we can get from Fracking and in how many years, it matters NOT, until we start producing the stuff and every little will help. Think how much nuclear energy we might have had if we had started building nuclear plants, rather than keep putting it off and without breaking ground in the mid 2000’s, have now left it too late. We needed a balance of energy supplies, but nothing much was done about it.

In conclusion whether looking at the past political histories of country energy suppliers, energy market price/volatility histories, or even the recent prices moves, you have NO argument on the need for energy supply/security, as that determines the price we might have to pay over long periods– and Putin is likely to be around a long time, no matter what other ‘event’ happens elsewhere and disrupts global supplies and the knock on effect to us.

Whether the risks of lifting it are real/acceptable, that is another matter beyond my little briefs.

flipflop21 · 06/03/2014 13:03

Research in the US reveals that scientists are only just beginning to find out the impact of fracking on water quality.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/algae-in-glass-cases-could-determine-frackinge28099s-toll/

flipflop21 · 06/03/2014 12:09

Another well on fire in the States this week - imagine that less than a km from your home and within 100 yards of public highway.

www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25271687/oil-gas-explosion-north-greeley-results-two-minor

flipflop21 · 04/03/2014 21:17

Isitmebut -Russia is the "largest supplier" of gas in Europe but it supplies less than 30% of Europe's gas - 70% of the gas is from elsewhere.

Fracking is not an immediate solution - it has the potential to meet 10% of our needs in about ten years time and at it's peak ( not in the near future but longer term) it could produce less than 50% of our needs). The UK consumes approx 70bcm of gas per year and fracking could at it's peak produce 32bcm but from the words of Ed Davey himself:

"The US has a closed gas market – massive increases in supply naturally affect prices. We are part of the European market.We source energy from far and wide. And we compete against others for the supply. And gas produced in the UK is sold into this market. When UK gas production in the North Sea was at its highest earlier this decade, UK and continental gas prices were still closely linked and fairly similar.Don't forget that whilst we may extract it here it will actually be sold on the European market. As you say supply and demand - if Europe loses 30% of our gas"

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-myths-and-realities-of-shale-gas-exploration

And from the Guardian an alternative perspective about current price rises:

"The gas price is currently influenced by temperatures and storage levels, and both don't favour demand right now." Prices of gas for delivery next month have risen around 10%, but that reflects insecurities in the market about a possible military confrontation between Russia and Ukraine rather than worries about fundamental shortages of supply were Gazprom to turn off the taps, the analyst told the agency.

Europe accounts for around a third of Gazprom's total gas sales, and around half of Russia's total budget revenue comes from oil and gas. Moscow needs that source of revenue, and whatever Vladimir Putin's geo-political ambitions, most energy analysts seem to agree he will think twice about jeopardising it. Short of an actual war, the consensus appears to be, Europe's gas supplies are unlikely to be seriously threatened."

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/europes-gas-supply-ukraine-crisis-russsia-pipelines

Storage is the key issue - and improving this is a lot less damaging and a more immediate solution than fracking.

So when I say scaremongering I am referring to your reference that Russia supplies most of the gas to Europe (not true) and that the fear of them "switching the tap off" is causing the price rise (not true) and that they would switch the tap off readily (not likely as they need the boost to their GDP).

Isitmebut · 04/03/2014 10:28

Come on Spin…check with your glorious leader for the one domestic policy he would agree with, as if an ex City Oil dealer doesn’t understand trending higher energy prices and that political risks provides high oil price volatility THAT DRIVES UP PEOPLES BILLS, no UK political leader will.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/household-bills/10673777/Household-energy-costs-leap-55pc-in-a-decade-despite-falling-usage.html

“Household spending on energy rose 55pc over a decade, excluding the impact of inflation, as soaring prices more than offset a 17pc drop in consumption, new data show.”

“Electricity, gas and other household fuels such as heating oil cost a typical household £106 a month in 2012, up from £69 a month in 2002, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said - with both figures expressed in 2012 money.”

“Energy costs increased from 3.3pc of a household's annual income to 5.1pc as a result.”

History over the past 35-years, never mind last week, shows us that the more we have to rely on dodgy regimes, often in dodgy regions, usually with dodgy expansion plans of their own – the less energy source and price security we have.

Nothing to do with CCHQ, just common bleedin’ sense as an energy consumer since the 1970's.

Spinflight · 04/03/2014 00:42

Tug your forlock and be humble flipflop.

CCHQ takes a dim view of plebs trying to meddle with their righteous plans.

Isitmebut · 03/03/2014 23:49

Hi flipflop21….I’m not going to bother looking into what growing percentage of gas we NEED to import, how many days supply we can store at any on time (and may I remind you of my quote “with Russia supplying most of Europe in gas”), but it’s a market ‘supply and demand’ fact – if Europe can not get ITS gas from Russia, the price will/is shooting up – and without the ability to store the stuff, our economy will be susceptible to volatile price swings, especially coming up to winter months.

Now I have no idea where, how, or the cost (and who would pay for it) of significantly increasing our gas storage capacity - and how long it would take to clear all the pressure groups who’d worry about their views, the danger of explosions, nesting Greebs(?) and haven knows what else – but it is not scare mongering if western Europe has to rely on Russia and Iran’s proven reserves and pipelines for its energy, it’s a geopolitical FACT.

Furthermore, there is no way anyone in government or the private sector will consider the prospects of boosting storage, IF we can harvest our own shale gas, so the sooner we find our IF it is viable and IF it is safe to extract, the better it will be for all the people that rely on gas and are concerned about price spikes, as detailed below. Hoping political/energy risk crisis only happen after a winter during low demand, is not a realistic policy.

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-03/natural-gas-rises-second-day-on-winter-storm-ukraine-escalation.html

“Natural gas for April delivery fell 11.7 cents to $4.492 per million British thermal units on the New York Mercantile Exchange, the lowest settlement since Jan. 21. Volume for all futures traded was 27 percent below the 100-day average at 2:55 p.m.. Prices are up 6.2 percent this year”.

“The futures tumbled 25 percent last week, capping the biggest one-week drop since 1996 and the first monthly decline since September. Prices reached $6.493 on Feb. 24, the highest intraday price since Dec. 2, 2008.”

Those are real price moves, not "scaremongering".

flipflop21 · 03/03/2014 18:38

Dare I say Isitmebut but you seem to be misinformed - we don't get a lot of our gas from Russia. It comes mostly from Norway and Quatar. So events in Russia are not a threat to our gas supplies.

www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/04/decc-energy-statistics,-march-2013

Instead of wrecking our countryside why don't we increase our storage capacity and stop scaremongering about "energy independence".

flipflop21 · 03/03/2014 18:37

Dare I say Isitmebut but you seem to be misinformed - we don't get a lot of our gas from Russia. It comes mostly from Norway and Quatar. So events in Russia are not a threat to our gas supplies.

www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/04/decc-energy-statistics,-march-2013

Instead of wrecking our countryside why don't we increase our storage capacity and stop scaremongering about "energy independence".

Isitmebut · 03/03/2014 14:41

Sorry to interject here whilst debating health issues, but with Russia supplying most of Europe in gas, the price is shooting up whether Ukraine shots are fired or anyone’s gas taps are turned off – I’ll reiterate my point on the need for UK gas security of supply – when we’re sitting on so much of the stuff.

Thats me out of this debate again; until the Russian taps DO get turned off and/or the Cold War hots up again.

flipflop21 · 02/03/2014 21:49

This is from The Lancet - it raises questions regarding long term health implications of fracking and how to influence policy and the development of the industry in the UK:

"In the USA, where more than 52 000 shale gas wells have been drilled, data
suggest that risks of environmental contamination occur at all stages in the development of shale gas extraction. Failure of the structural integrity of the well cement and casing, surface spills and leakage from above-ground
storage, emissions from gas-processing equipment, and the large numbers of heavy transport vehicles involved are the most important factors that contribute to environmental contamination and exposures in the USA.

Environmental exposures include outdoor air pollutants (ie, volatile organic compounds, tropospheric ozone, and diesel particulate matter) and pollutants (ie, benzene, hydrocarbons, endocrine-disrupting chemicals,
and heavy metals) in both ground and surfacewater. Known occupational hazards include airborne silica exposure at the well pad.11 Toxicological data for the chemicals injected into wells (so-called frac fluid) indicate that many of them have known adverse effects on health, with no toxicological data available for some."

www.psehealthyenergy.org/data/Lancet_Commentary.pdf

claig · 01/03/2014 18:32

Thanks, that is very useful

flipflop21 · 01/03/2014 17:55

And this document has a list at the end of it I think.
www.parliament.uk/Templates/BriefingPapers/Pages/BPPdfDownload.aspx?bp-id=sn06073

flipflop21 · 01/03/2014 17:31

There's this map - the blue bits are potential oil/ gas extraction areas:

blog.decc.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/SEA-and-licensed-areas-.jpg

This is from this website:

blog.decc.gov.uk/2013/12/17/preparing-for-the-14th-round-of-onshore-oil-and-gas-licences/

Is that helpful?

claig · 01/03/2014 09:58

flipflop21 is there a website that says the towns and counties of the country where fracking is likely to be carried?

flipflop21 · 28/02/2014 23:59

Spinflight - are you aware of the Duke's university study into methane seepage? Not through faults but through faulty well construction.

Duke researchers sampled 60 private water wells in northeastern Pennsylvania and found no sign of fracking fluids. But they did find that methane levels were on average 17 times higher in wells near drilling sites and that some of the methane had the chemical signature of shale gas. It may have leaked into the shallow aquifers, they said, through faulty casings around the gas wells. The Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) also blamed faulty casings in 2009 when it fined Cabot Oil & Gas for contaminating the drinking supplies of 19 homes in Dimock Township, 60 miles east of the Vargson farm. In that case the methane came not from the shale but from shallow deposits traversed by the gas wells. DEP has also fined gas companies for mishandling fracking wastewater and allowing spills that polluted creeks and rivers.

nicholas.duke.edu/cgc/pnas2011.pdf

What do you make of this?

Spinflight · 28/02/2014 23:26

Quite... Grin

My point is that people who are concerned about the environmental hazards write their oppositions in terms which would convince themselves.

As we have discussed there are bigger and more convincing issues for a wider audience. Frankly if you want to get anywhere, and as noted it is disappearing from the headlines, it is people like me that you have to convince.

flipflop21 · 28/02/2014 22:53

Spinflight - this type of incident could also leave one to believe that fracking is not "relatively clean":

"By the time the team arrived more than 13 hours later, brine water and hydraulic fracturing fluids from the well had spewed across nearby fields and into a creek."

www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/27/fracking-spill-response-pa_n_854465.html

I don't know how often this type of thing happens but the greater the number of wells the higher the risk.

You may have survived your windy bath but I'm not sure of the appeal of drinking methanated water. Gives an additional option to the conventional still/ sparkling variety I suppose.

Imagine the fun if you'd have had a match handy.

Spinflight · 28/02/2014 00:29

Methane into the water?

I farted in the bath earlier, though I appear to still be alive....

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