The true reason for deficit cutting.

Cogito: To passerby... "Nice day, sir!"

Passerby: "Indeed it is. Lovely sun shining today!"

Cogito: "It is lovely! Did you know that the Sun is actually a giant yellow ballon with a huge lightbulb in the middle of it?"

Passerby: "Erm... sorry?"

Cogito: "I said, did you know..."

Passerby: "Yes, I heard what you said. That's a joke, right?"

Cogito: "Not at all. It's a well-known fact."

Passerby: "That's not true at all. It's not a yellow balloon. It's a star which burns hyrdogen in a fusion reaction to create heat"

Cogito: "Nonsense!"

Passerby: "No really, it's true. Where did you get the idea that it was a giant balloon?"

Cogito: "Look, it's my opinion, OK!?"

Passerby: "But your opinion isn't based on anything. You just made it up. Look, it says right here in this online encyclopaedia that the Sun..."

Cogito: "You're ridiculous, man! Every time a man holds an opinion, you expect him to use references and notes, etc. How rude! Good day to you, sir!"

Passerby: "Err... good day."

Niceguy-

You are under a serious delusion that the majority of the public agree with you and hold your reactionary views. They don't.

Cogito-

He is a she, thanks. And I don't think it's written anywhere that a point of view is only valid if it's accompanied by huge great bodies of text that show somebody else's opinion. Do you turn up in the pub for a chat with a wheelbarrowful of newspapers or (heaven forbid) your laptop just in case someone asks you what you think?

No, Cogito. When you make assertions about the real world - such as claims about social security and so on, I expect you to actually back up what you say with facts. At the very least, a link would do.

Otherwise we're in the realm of exchanging nothing but speculation and unfounded prejudice without any basis in reality.

niceguy Cogito

The reason MPs salaries go up is because they vote on their own pay rises. This should reveal that actually both sides of the political spectrum are self serving. But then, if you or I got to vote on whether we and our colleagues got a pay rise, I think we all would say yes. The system needs changing.

I'm a social democrat politically and I personally cannot stand what has happened to higher education and tuition fees. Having said that, in our constituency we have a Tory MP who is genuinely a good guy and who works hard. I think talking in grand scale terms of ideologies often obscures the individual good that people do. The best way to change things is not to conjure great conspiracy theories but to encourage meaningful grassroots activism - active membership in political parties, helping people register to vote and joining pressure groups.

Oh right, i was nearly there then.

• The coalition are lying to the public so well that most believe it
• Labour are pretty much the same as the coalition nowadays
• EU/IMF are representing the business class and conspiring against the public

Basically it's one giant conspiracy isn't it? And we're all suckers. Well except you. You know the truth and have been kind enough to share that truth with us on MN. Except we're too thick and too brainwashed to understand that right?

I must admit, i haven't seen any evidence of massive civil unrest in the UK. Actually..there was that riot that lasted days. But from memory that was after the police shot someone and much of the 'anger' seemed to be directed towards PCWord, Comet & designer sports stores. Do you think that was because of the coalition's neo-liberal ideology? And the theft of plasma TV's was merely a protest at the status quo right?

Interestingly enough though, the country with the largest amount of civil unrest has been Greece which had the biggest budget deficit. I haven't seen much rioting in Germany which pretty much had a balanced budget.

Barman "Nice day sir"
ttossa "You're merely spouting the rhetoric of the right-wing press and you are too thick to know you are being manipulated. Here, let me delve into this weighty satchel & read you a four page conspiracy theory about a government weather cover-up written by someone in the Huffington Post who of course has no ulterior motive and who I therefore believe unquestioningly"
Barman (puzzled) "The sun is shining and we have seating outside. Can I get you a drink?"
ttossa "Not only changing the subject but you can't be bothered to substantiate your ridiculous 'shining sun' assertions by matching my four page article with one of your own! "
Barman (sighs) "Next...."

"He never challenges any of my facts or statistics or posts facts or statistics of his own."

He is a she, thanks. And I don't think it's written anywhere that a point of view is only valid if it's accompanied by huge great bodies of text that show somebody else's opinion. Do you turn up in the pub for a chat with a wheelbarrowful of newspapers or (heaven forbid) your laptop just in case someone asks you what you think?

That the coalition have consistently lied to the public is a matter of record.

Your delusion is that you think 'everyone' agrees with you. They don't. Support for the mainstream parties is at an all-time low whilst contempt for politicians is at an all-time hight.

People are not apolitical - far from it, they have just realise that true power and representation lies elsewhere, which is why in the past couple of decades, you have seen the public protest in unprecedented numbers.

This will continue as the ideology of neo-liberalism impoverishes and immiserates a greater and greater portion of the population. When there is little or no middle-class left and people have nothing left to lose, there will be massive civil unrest. Expect it.

I've already addressed the point about Labour many times, as I tend to explain things to you many times. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

The IMF and EU have admitted that austerity has harmed european economies. In any case, the IMF is not concerned about promoting the well-being of citizens in the EU or the world. That's not its remit. It is concerned solely with promoting free-trade and opening and creating new markets.

Had the austerity measures worked like their ideology said it would, and growth was restored, yet at the same time, wages continued to declined, wealth inequality increased, and more people relied on foodbanks (as is happening now without growth), then the IMF would have considered it a success. They IMF represents the business class, not the public.

So let me get this straight then.

The coalition are lying to the public. They've been so good at it that everyone is suckered into the lie, that's what you are saying isn't it? And I guess therefore these lies are SO effective that Labour feel they have no choice but to continue on this unpopular path because spending money we blatantly have would lose them more votes than cutting essential services.....

I guess then that the IMF and EU are also suckered into the coalitions lies about the fact that cuts are necessary (let's put aside the argument of how much and how fast).

But you....you and your trusty computer's cut & paste feature are the ones who can see through the lies....

Yeah....right.........

When are you going to start actually addressing the arguments?

Support for the coalitions policies are based on lying to the public. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

=====================

Church leaders demand ministers apologise for "misrepresenting the poor"

An alliance of 11 churches condemns Iain Duncan Smith and Grant Shapps for their misuse of benefit statistics.

As I've regularly noted on The Staggers, rarely a month now passes without one of David Cameron's ministers being rebuked for some act of statistical chicanery (or, indeed, the Prime Minister himself). And it's not just the number crunchers at the UK Statistics Authority who are concerned. An alliance of 11 churches, including the Methodist Church, the Quakers and the Church of Scotland, has written to Cameron demanding "an apology on behalf of the government for misrepresenting the poor."

The leaders, including the Right Revd Tim Stevens, Bishop of Leicester, and the Right Revd Nick Baines, Bishop of Bradford, highlight three of the most recent offences:

• Grant Shapps's claim that "nearly a million people" (878,300) on incapacity benefit dropped their claims, rather than face a new medical assessment for its successor, the employment and support allowance.

• Iain Duncan Smith's claim that nearly 8,000 people moved into work as a result of the introduction of the benefit cap (for which, as I recently reported, he now faces a grilling from the work and pensions select committee).

• Duncan Smith's claim (yes, him again) that many people were applying for the Disability Living Allowance before the new Personal Independence Payment was introduced in order to avoid the new medical test.

They write:

"All three of these statements have drawn on high quality Government statistical data which has then been misused and misinterpreted. All serve to undermine the credibility of benefit claimants. They were all released at the same time as major changes to the benefit system, which will reduce the level of support many families receive.

"It is disturbing that these three instances conform to an apparent pattern of misleading and sometimes wholly inaccurate information from the Government when dealing with the issue of social security; a practice that has added to the misunderstanding and stigma which continues to pollute the debate around poverty in the UK. We are concerned that these inaccuracies paint some of the most vulnerable in our society in an unfavourable light, stigmatising those who need the support of the benefits system. No political or financial imperative can be given to make this acceptable."

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/06/church-leaders-demand-ministers-apologise-misrepresenting-poor

Mate, your opinions make members of Socialist Worker seem a bit right wing. Practically everyone is to the right of your ideology.

Labour aren't repealing anything, the Tories actually seem pretty centre right now and UKIP are now firmly on the right. Given their popularity it seems the entire country has shifted significantly to the right.

So when you say there is no way of satisfying the right wingers, you actually mean the overwhelming majority of the population yes?

It's not emotive waffle, it's the basis on which to have arguments.

I could either post my opinions-as-facts because thats-what-I-reckon because that's-what-read-in-the-Daily-Mail or I can actually link to articles which contain facts and assertions about the real world.

I'm not suggesting anybody accept anything I post at face value. In fact, I post them precisely so that they can be challenged.

Niceguy usually just comes out with ideology and nothing to back anything up, though he occasionally makes some bumbling effort to challenge links to govt. stats and so on.

Cogito almost never does anything but spout ideology. He never challenges any of my facts or statistics or posts facts or statistics of his own.

If I just posted my opinion and nothing else, I would be accused of being a 'left-wing ideologue'. And when I post articles which actually discuss facts and numbers, I am 'accused' of 'cut and paste'.

There is no way to satisfy the right-wing ideologues, so I'm not going to try.

Hahahaha ttosca that's so hypocritical it almost sounds like it's purposefully a stupid post or something.

Who is the one who copies and pastes/writes out swathes of all this emotive waffle?

kettle....this this pot......you're black

Cogito-

Maybe some day you'll start arguing with facts instead of rhetoric all the time.

Cogito "tossa"? was that a freudian slip?

Me playing the gallery?... LOL. Sorry tossa but your track record of deliberately and rather too-obviously filling the MN boards with nothing but the most emotive far-left propaganda makes you a very black sock-puppet of a pot to start dishing out criticism to this particular kettle...

Smith. Shapps. Now Cameron lies to Parliament on NHS stats

I?ve written recently about the gross abuse of statistics by the DWP and by Grant Shapps on behalf of the government, which led to public rebukes by Andrew Dilnot, the Chair of the UK Statistics Authority.

This is not aberrant behaviour. The Tory party has a strong track record of statistical distortion and even outright lies. David Cameron lied to Parliament last year about new private sector jobs created under his government (an offence that used to lead to automatic resignation if discovered). Last week, he was at it again.

During PMQs on Wednesday, during a typically woeful and arrogant performance in which he barely referred to an opposition question let alone answer one, Cameron was challenged by a Labour MP on the massive increase in A&E waiting times. Here?s the exchange:

Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Yet again we have no answers from the Prime Minister, who blames everyone but himself and denies that there is a crisis in A and E. Let me give him one more chance to try to give an answer. Why does he not admit what everyone in the health service knows?his £3 billion reorganisation has diverted attention and resources from patient care and he has betrayed his promises? May we now have an answer?
The Prime Minister: The abolition of the bureaucracy that this Government have brought about will put billions of pounds extra into the NHS, but the point that the hon. Gentleman has to take on is that this Government made a decision, which was not to cut the NHS. We are putting £12.7 billion extra into the NHS.

£12.7 billion extra into the NHS. David Cameron knows this to be untrue. He knows it because, like his ministers Iain (Duncan) Smith and Grant Shapps, he and his government were rebuked late last year for making similar false claims on NHS spending. Here?s how Sky News reported it:

he [Dilnot] said the UKSA?s calculations were based on what he considered ?the most authoritative source? of national statistics on the subject ? the Treasury?s Public Spending Statistics publication.

?On the basis of these figures, we would conclude that expenditure on the NHS in real terms was lower in 2011-12 than it was in 2009-10,? he said.

Even the Telegraph, normally a tame Rottweiler for the Tories when it comes to the NHS, got saw the reality of the matter and got in on the act with this headline:

Image

When the £12 billion claim first reared its head, it was challenged robustly by BBC Politics Show host Andrew Neil. Interviewed after his speech to the Conservative party conference last autumn, Jeremy Hunt tried to claim that the Tories had put this extra money into the NHS.

Neil, to his credit, shot back that this was ?pure propaganda? ? and revealed that the funding increase was £60 million ? far less than matching inflation, and therefore a substantial real-terms decrease.

But the truth about NHS spending under this government doesn?t end there. A huge amount of the money that the coalition puts into the NHS simply goes in the front door and straight out the back. As I reported last year, in the 2011/12 fiscal year, the Treasury ?clawed back? no less than £1.4 billion from NHS funds, while siphoning off another £1.5bn for other uses ? dwarfing the paltry increase in budgeted funds.

But it gets worse. The clawback for the 2012/13 year was even higher ? at £2.2 billion.

The reality of the NHS funding situation is no secret, and is certainly not something that Cameron could claim to be in ignorance of or that it slipped his mind.

No matter which way you cut it, Cameron ? knowingly ? lied to the House and should resign immediately, were it not that such things are more likely to lead to promotion than to resignation under this government, as Jeremy Hunt?s case showed last year. Not only that, but he repeated a lie that he?s already been rebuked about and told not to repeat.

I have therefore written to Andrew Dilnot at the UKSA as follows (with a copy to Shadow Health Secretary Andy Burnham):

Dear Mr Dilnot,
Last Wednesday (5 June), David Cameron claimed during Prime Minister?s Questions:
?We are putting £12.7 billion extra into the NHS.?
Looking at Treasury spending statistics, I see a nominal, but not real-terms, increase in NHS spending compared to the last year under the previous government, but certainly nothing like £12.7 billion. Since the Treasury routinely claws back well billions from the NHS ? some £2.2 billion during 2012/13, up from £1.5bn in 2011/12 ? Mr Cameron?s statement was a bald lie. He did not say that NHS budgets had increased, but that more was ?put into? the NHS ? which is not true when the Treasury is clawing back far more than the nominal increase.
And even if this were not the case, budgets have not risen by £12.7 billion ? or at all in real terms according to yourself late last year.
Since you have been so good as to rebuke the government over false statistical claims on at least a couple of occasions this year, please would you take a look at this matter and do so again?
See the following links for further information:
<a class="break-all" href="http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/the-govts-1-5bn-backdoor-nhs-theft-on-top-of-its-1-4bn-claw-back/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/the-govts-1-5bn-backdoor-nhs-theft-on-top-of-its-1-4bn-claw-back/</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-treatments-rationed-hit-cash-1777836" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-treatments-rationed-hit-cash-1777836</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/02/18/revealed-tories-siphoning-nhs-money-to-the-treasury-despite-promises/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">liberalconspiracy.org/2013/02/18/revealed-tories-siphoning-nhs-money-to-the-treasury-despite-promises/</a>
I look forward to your response.
Best regards,
Steve Walker
The SKWAWKBOX blog

Can I ask you to do the same, to make sure that this issue receives the attention ? and eventually the public rebuke ? that it deserves? If you want to send your own complaint to the UKSA, the email address is [email protected].

Can I ask you to do the same, to make sure that this issue receives the attention ? and eventually the public rebuke ? that it deserves? If you want to send your own complaint to the UKSA, the email address is [email protected].

You might want to copy it to your MP, too ? a complaint from Sheila Gilmore MP to Andrew Dilnot led to the rebuke on ESA benefit lies, so some MPs do pay attention to such things and take action. If you want to find your MPs details, you can look them up very quickly at www.theyworkforyou.com.

Jump in and let?s turn up the heat on Walter Mitty David Cameron for his persistent, arrogant lies!

skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2013/06/09/smith-shapps-now-cameron-lies-to-parliament-on-nhs-stats/

Oh, good show, Cogito, going for a play to the gallery!

What I said was that people were misinformed about welfare, thanks to the relentless propaganda coming from the Tories and the right-wing press (as that article shows). I didn't call them stupid.

In fact, the public appear to be considerably smarter than the Tory apologists, since, when told the actual facts about social security spending, the numbers for people who support or oppose cuts to social security typically swap the other way around.

In other words, when the public are made aware of the realities of welfare spending, as opposed to Tory lies, they no longer support the cuts.

It's not surprising that the only way the Tories can maintain this level of support - as abysmal as it already is - is through lying.

"support for government welfare cuts is based on ignorance and misinformation."

To claim that this all boils down to the electorate being stupid is rather insulting and patronising, don't you think?

"Rather than challenge these myths, they calculate it would be easier to campaign on the commonly-accepted narrative"

Or... it's not myths. The 'commonly-accepted narrative' is the truth, in other words. There is no great popular demand for extreme socialism or communism.

Yawn...yes yes, it's all the fault of the Tories. Life before they came along was just ticketyboo and we lived in a socialist utopia.

Tories are scum, the economy is in the shitter because of them. The Lib dems are scum I expect for getting into bed with them. Labour won't change anything because guess what....it's the Tories fault. Is there anything which wasn't the fault of the Tories?

Also, when you hear Tory's talk about 'making work pay', you should read that as 'reducing social security payments'.

In reality, as everyone should know by now, the majority of social security is paid out to people in work.

The problem is that work doesn't pay, not that social security is too generous.

If the Tory scum really wanted to 'make work pay' they would enact a Living Wage as a legal requirement. They won't. Quite the contrary, they've suggested that the min wage should be allowed to 'wither away' over time by not keeping the rate up with inflation.

So, thanks to the Tories, we'll continue to have a situation where tax payers subsidize businesses who pay pittance wages to their employees.

In other words, welfare for the rich, Capitalism for the poor.