Homebase let cat out of the bag about using workfare to reduce wage bills

The American founding fathers didn't do any of that. America was born from noble ideas and principles.

I defy you to keep a dry eye when listening to the great words of their National Anthem - land of the brave and home of the free. Magnificent stuff. It is even better than a Daily Mail editorial and that is saying something!

Rockefeller was a capitalist and Stalin was a communists. They were both elites in their respective socities. Neither was a worker.

I am with the people, with the workers, with the Daily Mail readers against the elites who do not represent the people and who want to inflict zero-growth and low-growth and population control on the people of the earth under their climate change scam in order to maintain power and control in their oligarchical system of elte control.

That is why I read teh Daily Mail, widely known as the people's paper and the paper of the "squeezed middle" who are "sqiueezed" by the elite.

that should be 50*, sorry must get back to work.

American history is fascinating, they kill their presidents, invade other countries, drop air bases all over the globe, undermine other governments, control the top 20 corporations, extract tribute from the poorest regions. America looks at the the rest of the world, points to the ground and says "your standing on my oil"

Rockefeller, and who was he? capitalist or worker?

Mini, I am not an expert on American history, but I have heard some of the American Cosntitution being read out and it is one of teh world's finest documents that freed teh people from tyranny and unrepresentative government. The American Revolution was the unfolding of teh historical process that led to the freeing of teh human spirit from oligarchical rule and was supported by teh French who had had their own revolution to free the people.

America is a great country founded on noble principles and ideals and freedom of thought and expression is enshrined in their great constitution. It is one of teh shining documents of world history and teh human spirit.

But I will listen to teh Marxist view and see what they say about it.

History of the founding fathers and the constitution.

'Just because is already happening doesn't mean it can't be changed.'

I agree with you there, the poll tax was changed. But we all make different judgements and different beliefs. You probably believe in climate catastrophe, I don't. I don't think workfare will be changed because I think it was decided on high by New Labour and the Tories (whereas the poll tax did not have Labour support and even many Tories disagreed with Thatcher on it). I could be wrong, but that is the way I see it. But I am not stopping you opposing it if you think you can change it.

'So your resignation is not borne out of reality'

It is borne out of my understanding of reality, just as I don't think that the rich eleiet will end their climate change and zero-growth policies easily unless they are exposeed by more Climategates in teh future, but I doubt that will happen, so what will be will be.

'Your ideas are very close to fascist, I'm afraid: the disdain for 'intellectuals', 'progressives', and rhetoric directed at the 'elite' - even though you have no idea who they really are.'

No I am not a fascist because unlike you I believe in democracy and I like to hear all views - be that Guardian or Daily Mail. I believe in the will of teh people (just like teh American founding fathers) and not in "sofa government" by Oxbridge elites who do not represent the people.

Justr because you have not yet understood that environmentalists are puppets of teh rich elite and that the Club of Rome who commissioned teh 'Limits to Growth' report that kickstarted the worldwide green low-growth zero-grwoth movement net on what I think was a Rockefeller estate in Italy, but I can't remember exactly and would need to look it up, doesn't mean that you will not one day understand teh truth.

The Daily Mail is not a fascist paper. it is teh world's leading online paper and named teh Stephen Lawrence killers and is against teh BNP. So you can try and smear good Daily Mail journalists and millions of good readers worldwide, but it only shows the desperation of your arguments.

'[The Tories] They all overwhelming also rich, white, males -- many of whom inherited millions and have never worked a day in their lives.

Where do you get this stuff from? The Socialist Worker's Party magazine?
Thatcher was a middle class white woman and worked for a living. She was also our one and only female Prime Minister, David Davis grew up in a single parent home on a council estate and stood for leader of the Tory party. John Major left school at 16 and was the son of a circus entertainer. What are you on about? They were not all Oxbridge PPEs.

' You have no idea who 'the people' are'

I beg to differ. The people in their masses but the Daily Mail and teh Sun. You and your Socialist Worker buddies do not represent teh majority of teh people. I respect all people and all views, but as a democrat, I respect teh wishes of the majority and don't look down on them or the paper that they choose to read which is known as teh people's paper and proudly bears that name.

They don't ask us because they don't represent us. They represent the interests of capitalists. What we need to do is remind them that they are only going to get behind the wheel if we give them the keys.

Labour unfortunately are in a very precarious position because they have been co-opted to the right. They fear losing the benevolence of a global cabal of tax dodging corporations and the investment they believe we need. Thatcher released the equivalent to a deadly virus over the globe, something that has turned on us, will ultimately bankrupt nation states incl us and labour have little power to stop it. Its like sleeping with the enemy. They appease the global capitalists and beg for their favour.

Yes, and the tories are all ears.

It's called a representative democracy. You vote them in and they do what they please. I don't really understand it, but from what I can make out, that's what New Labour was all about.

That's why people say "plus ca change..."

I would have said "Climate Act! Oi! No!" and the Harry Enfield character might possibly have agreed. But alas they never asked us, that would mess up their plans and only create fuss.

Some nuts support UKIP, some even vote UKIP, this gets Scameron on the run. He comes out and says "lets tackle immigration" what we have to do is put an equal amount of pressure on labour for them to come out and condemn workfare. We need to nudge labour to the left. We need to be unequivocal, you want our votes, you represent us.

New Labour didn't ask me and you when they decided to start on the path to workfare, they didn't ask me and you when they brought in the Climate Act, they didn't ask me and you when they decided to "save the planet" for us, they didn't ask me and you, they never do.

I'm not a progressive, I don't know how New Labour started the process, all I know is that they did.

'What does 'decided on high'? By whom? By what process?'

I don't know, because I don't move in New Labour circles.

New Labour took on the marican ideas and began legislation which began teh move towards it. I don't know what process it was. Maybe it was the New Labour "sofa government" that we have heard about.

' Why can't we do anything about it? '

Because it is already happening and was voted in as far as I know. It is happening and I think it is futile to wish that it wasn't. I don't believe in charging at windmills like Don Quixote. I think some things cannot be changed, so I think it is best to try and modify them for teh best possible outcome.

I don't know what proto-fascism is, but do you have anything to contribute apart from insults?

'Workfare is reducing jobs and undermining the NMW.'

I agree about that, because it is not being used as part of a growth programme, but is using current capacity in a non-growing economy.

That is why I believe we should create an entirely new area of growth funded by quantitaive easing (which should be given to large capital projects rather than banks) and this will create additional jobs and put people on workfare in these new growth areas rather than with existing employers stacking shelves for free.

We have to enlarge teh job market, we have to expand and we have to grow. We can't create employment in a zero-growth low-growth climate.

wannabe, I don't think we can do anything about workfare. I think it has been decided on high that that will happen and New Labour even began the path towards it.

But if we are going to have it, let's make it useful to the people on workfare and to the community.

I think it is possible to both create jobs and train people on workfare with useful skils at the same time and I think that will start the economy moving.

It has got to be better than doing nothing.

I don't believe everything that the Daily Mail says.

But there are Tories who have been calling for growth and kickstart to the economy. I think Boris has been calling for the extension of a major airport.

We can't afford to just sit back and wait and keep our fingers crossed that things will turn out alright. The government has been voted in by the people and it has been entrusted with the power to act. We need action not delay.

So are we creating jobs or training people on workfare?

How about we create jobs and also create VOLUNTARY PAID apprenticeships and training opportunities so people can further themselves.

Workfare is reducing jobs and undermining the NMW.

Wow Claig, Keynsian economics? That's unusual for a fan of the DM!