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Original poster

I wonder what the real reason is behind welfare reform?

139 replies

Peahentailfeathers · 01/04/2013 08:15

Welfare (pensions, OOW benefits etc) and the NHS are paid for solely by NI contributions. The government is not allowed to touch this money but it may borrow from any surplus; the yearly surplus is around £2bn.

The coalition rhetoric of "taxpayers are sick of seeing blinds closed when they go out to work" and all the other rubbish they spout is either ignorant stupidity or malevolent divisiveness, because tax has nothing to do with it.

NI contributions may not be used for any other purpose than welfare, so why does the government want to cut benefits and introduce private pensions for everybody? Gideon Osborne spoke in 2011 of possibly combining tax and NI. This would give him access to a huge pool of money that is specifically earmarked, by Statute, for healthcare and welfare - he would want to use it for other purposes.

Tax credits, on the other hand, do come out of the tax budget; however this money doesn't subsidise poorly paid workers, it arguably subsidises businesses so they do not have to pay a living wage.

Basically, I don't see how the government can legally include the welfare budget in its programme of cuts. There may be an argument for making the welfare system more efficient but any cuts or changes would not affect the government's budget.

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 01/04/2013 17:21

The NHS etc isn't paid for solely by NI contributions.

caramelwaffle · 01/04/2013 16:11

Ideological opposition.

infamouspoo · 01/04/2013 16:07

the Tories voted against the setting up of the welfare state back in the 40's. They have always been ideologically opposed.

niceguy2 · 01/04/2013 15:32

Welfare (pensions, OOW benefits etc) and the NHS are paid for solely by NI contributions.

No...they are SUPPOSED to be paid for out of NI contributions but that stopped being the reality decades ago.

NIC for 2011-2012 was around £100billion.

DWP budget for 2011-2012 was £169 billion.
NHS budget 2011-2013 was £104 billion.

So in summary

So not even close to a £2 billion surplus. I can't see how anyone living on the same planet could even come close to that figure.

skinnywitch · 01/04/2013 12:37

Or at least leaving it in such a godawful, unaffordable mess by 2010 that the incoming government doesn't even know where to start on sorting it out.

So, a bit like Labour left the economy?

AuntieStella · 01/04/2013 08:49

from the Government Actuarial Department.

NI receipts 2011-2012 £81,874m
NI payments £85,869m

So not "in surplus" - in deficit by about £4,000m

pumpkinsweetie · 01/04/2013 08:47

I meant the conservatives can drink more and smoke cigars!

pumpkinsweetie · 01/04/2013 08:47

To make the poor, poorer so they can swig more whisky and smoke more cigars. Because of course we poor must not eat, smoke, drink, keep warm or live.
It's because the Conservatives are prejudice, infact they are even picking on the disabled now as well as the poor.
It will not save much cash, as not a lot was given to most to begin with unless you lived in a mansion with a hook.

To claw back money, they need to focus on tax avoidance, as there is so much lost from that than anything else.

He has us all fighting against each other by creating a media propaganda, that makes anyone on benefits look well off by using the worst example and showing the bad parts of the nhs to ruse people into the private care idea.
The thing is most of us are not stupid and see through most of his nonsense and he will find him and his Robbing Hood party out on their ear in the next election.

Having been part of a working family and a non-working family just recently due to redundancy, i can assure you, allow greatful for benefits it's hardly cushy. My dh is desperate to get back into work but doesn't even get an interview 99 percent of the time. Yet according to this government we are classed as shirkers as my dh isn't working, yet its through no fault of his own that he isn't.

I think the Conservatives could do with living of benefits for a month and see how they like it. Then they can shit their pants about what's going to happen on Uc

AuntieStella · 01/04/2013 08:40

Overspending?

Real reason? Not caring about the welfare system. Or at least leaving it in such a godawful, unaffordable mess by 2010 that the incoming government doesn't even know where to start on sorting it out.

AuntieStella · 01/04/2013 08:39

Can you source the figures which show that NI is "in surplus"?

I've seen this claim made on a number of websites, but no evidence to support it (will try to find the again the only authoritative link ever quoted, but that shows no surplus).

Indeed, given the scale of total Government deficit, and the level of welfare spending as a proportion of total Governement spending (pensions, remember, which are rising rapidly), it's obvious the Governement (whichever party in power) doesn't have the money to continue the welfare state int he form it was left in 2010.

Original poster
Peahentailfeathers · 01/04/2013 08:32

the baby part was to Stormybid - x posts Smile

OP posts:
Original poster
Peahentailfeathers · 01/04/2013 08:31

Probably, but it's not theirs to dismantle!

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/04/2013 08:29

Its idealogical.

The Tories don't believe in a Welfare state, or indeed any state provided services. The Tories are into capitalism and market forces, anything else smacks of socialism.

They are doing it because they can, and because it is playing out their vision.

StormyBrid · 01/04/2013 08:25

Real reason? Dismantling the welfare system. Or at least leaving it in such a godawful mess by 2015 that the next government doesn't even know where to start on sorting it out.