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Politics

I wonder what the real reason is behind welfare reform?

139 replies

Peahentailfeathers · 01/04/2013 08:15

Welfare (pensions, OOW benefits etc) and the NHS are paid for solely by NI contributions. The government is not allowed to touch this money but it may borrow from any surplus; the yearly surplus is around £2bn.

The coalition rhetoric of "taxpayers are sick of seeing blinds closed when they go out to work" and all the other rubbish they spout is either ignorant stupidity or malevolent divisiveness, because tax has nothing to do with it.

NI contributions may not be used for any other purpose than welfare, so why does the government want to cut benefits and introduce private pensions for everybody? Gideon Osborne spoke in 2011 of possibly combining tax and NI. This would give him access to a huge pool of money that is specifically earmarked, by Statute, for healthcare and welfare - he would want to use it for other purposes.

Tax credits, on the other hand, do come out of the tax budget; however this money doesn't subsidise poorly paid workers, it arguably subsidises businesses so they do not have to pay a living wage.

Basically, I don't see how the government can legally include the welfare budget in its programme of cuts. There may be an argument for making the welfare system more efficient but any cuts or changes would not affect the government's budget.

OP posts:
Solopower1 · 03/04/2013 00:34

My last post was in response to your 00:24 one, not the most recent. I must speed up my typing.

What about what Promoted says?

claig · 03/04/2013 00:34

'Why don't they trust us, the public, with the truth?'

Because the "truth" they want to implement is often unpalatable to teh public, so they disguise the truth and spin it.

The Tories are doing a terrible job of media management and spin. They are incompetent. Ever since teh past tax it has been one disaster after another and now there is even talk of possible challenges to Cameron. They are terrible spinners even though they pay money to hire the so-called experts in spin.

But even with all of that and even if teh BBC helps Labour, the Tories will still win, because the public deep down agrees that cuts need to be made and all that New Labour can do is spin about "tax cuts for millionaires".

Solopower1 · 03/04/2013 00:32

I think I see what you mean, Claig.

You see things very strangely. So the Daily Mail is the one and only speaker of truth to power?

It might speak for some, but it doesn't say anything about my truth. Tbh, for me, the DM is like the negaitve of a black and white photo. It sees the black where I see the white and vice versa.

claig · 03/04/2013 00:29

''th epublic knows that and will only vote for people who are honest and stop the spin'

Do you think so? Do you really think so? Who are the people who are honest?'

You ar eright and I am wrong about honest. The public won't vote for someone who is honest if they are also wrong. It is really about the public voting for someone who agrees with what the public already thinks. The public is not stupid, it listens to teh spin, but in the end it chooses the person who says what the public thinks. It does not choose the spinner who is not in tune with public thinking. That is what I mean by dishonest - the spinner.

Solopower1 · 03/04/2013 00:28

Excellent post, Promoted. My reply was to Claig (X posted).

claig · 03/04/2013 00:24

No the elephants in the room are the Daily Mail headlines, which they all criticise and refuse to discuss.

The public can see the elephant in the room because they don't live on Primrose Hill.

Solopower1 · 03/04/2013 00:24

It worked for Blair.

They all do it. That's why it's so hard to trust anything they say, and why we are always second-guessing them. Even the title of this thread: what's the real reason behind the welfare cuts?

Why don't they trust us, the public, with the truth?

Promotedbymailinglist · 03/04/2013 00:24

By the way the 'get up in the morning' dog whistle is all about the working class jobs in London - the ones who pay less than enough to live on in the capital but are essential to the capital functioning - get the early tubes and see who are on them, not the higher-earners, the graduate trainees etc.

The 'blinds down' will be heard by all those people as 'nearly everyone in the country who earns more than me' - its a fake appeal to say to the working class in london, cleaners etc that the conservatives are supporting them more than the office workers.. i.e. its sheer spin.

(for what its worth, my main room curtain is not only down all day, but its velcroed around the edges (saves on the heating fact fans!).

This budget is a weirdy one to say that they are motivating the poor by taking away all their money - the poor are not the people who are using the welfare budget - its mostly middle class pensioners with higher life expectancy who are spending the welfare budget, the amount spared for people who are unemployed and working tax credits is teeny tiny compared to it.

The conservatives pride themselves on allowing business owners to take priority over staff, and on blaming the poor for not earning a decent wage 'you should work harder' - but in middle class occupations this becomes 'you should ask for a pay rise' or 'you should play the market to get paid more'. BUT When working class people demand higher wages or move employers for better conditions they are seen as trouble makers, lefties and nuisances. Its a difference in perception and based largely on who makes the money from paying low wages - the sectors that do so, service sector, manufacturing, retail are dominated by large businesses, and these recruit disproportionally from private schools.

Private schools still have a perception of class that its difficult to get your head round unless you have been close to it, its pretty much Edwardian/Victorian. (for evidence see which film and series i.e. cultural mirrors still get the most funding still and think of Mary Poppins. How often do we see Jane Austen and Dickens? remade and remade??)

Most clearly though this is a budget that reflects the still very old fashioned class-based education received in private schools. The recent 'pub quiz' education being advocated perpetuates this idea, i.e. that we should instill into our children the 'horrible histories' version of the poor being brutalised stupid and industry, agriculture or army fodder and the Jane Austen country house idea of the middle class 'leaders' who have all the intellectual discussion, strategic power plays and have all the emotions.

Sadly this perception is still so ingrained into public school life that its not a surprise that these people cannot view the world differently - the House of Commons is an extension of private schools and is steeped in the same traditions of the eras they believe we still exist in. It makes us laughable in the world, but still it continues because so many routes to power and money are still designed by men of that type, surrounded by other men of that type.

Conservative MPs who complain about welfare excesses, unionisation, lazy poor people etc would do well to remember that they are the most protected and most successfully unionised group in the public sector - their wages and wage rises are guaranteed and decided upon collectively not by contribution, but by need, their expense accounts and living expenses allow them to keep a good chunk of their salary untouched, they have the best healthcare, pension and in work benefits of any single group in the private sector.

claig · 03/04/2013 00:21

'I would see the BBC's juxtaposition of the two programmes as a straightforward attempt to remind us just how important welfare is.'

That is exactly why they did it. But ask yourself why they made that headline news today and not two weeks ago? I think it was significant that it was followed by Osborne next talking about cuts. They were showing us how important benefits were and they then followed it by people who wanted to cut benefits.

I think they know all the tricks, but their weakness is that they are probably also Oxbridge educated Primrose Hill progressives on generous expenses and large salaries paid for by the public, and have never met a worker in a high-vis vest. The public is not stupid and they woke up to Blair's spin. Spin is not the way to win.

Solopower1 · 03/04/2013 00:18

We'll see.

Solopower1 · 03/04/2013 00:17

So the elephant in your room is that the Labour party don't have any better ideas?

claig · 03/04/2013 00:16

Osborne may be a toff and he does get a bad press from much of our TV media and press and that is why he was booed at the Olympics. But when election time comes, when he increasingly speaks to workers in factories and shopfloors, they will not see a toff as the New Labour spinners try to paint him, they will see someone who says what they think.

The public knows that both parties are full of Oxbridge educated millionaires and some toffs, but none of that will count. The public aren't stupid, they have already formed their opinions, they know what they want and they will vote for whoever gives it to them, and the way it is looking now, that will be the Oxbridge educated Eton toffs rather than the Oxbridge educated Primrose Hill progressives.

It won't matter what the BBC does, it won't matter how much they try to help Labour, because the public have already made up their mind.

Solopower1 · 03/04/2013 00:15

Strange way you have of looking at things, Claig. I would see the BBC's juxtaposition of the two programmes as a straightforward attempt to remind us just how important welfare is. That's a good message to get across, benefits all of us, don't you think?

(If you think it benefits the Labour Party, then you are saying that the Labour Party also thinks welfare is important and the Tories don't).

'th epublic knows that and will only vote for people who are honest and stop the spin'

Do you think so? Do you really think so? Who are the people who are honest? How can we tell them apart from the ones that are not honest? How do we know that even the honest ones won't break their promises?

The Daily Mail is part of the problem, imo.

claig · 03/04/2013 00:03

Our TV news and media is mainly with Labour and the public message and Duncan Smith's message and Osborne's message does not get across well on our TV scrreens.

Tonight on Newsnight, they started the programme with a report on orphanges in Russia and disabled children and families giving up children because they could not cope and afford to look after them. The message was about benefits being very important, about state care being very important, which is true.

The second report was on the benefit cuts by the Tories. However, Blair's ex-adviser couldn't make a strong enough case for Labour's position even though our media is helping Labour.

The reason is that their argument is not credible. The elephant in the room is only discussed and can only be seen in newspapers such as the Daily Mail, and unfortunately for Labour, the majority of the workers in high-vis vests on teh shopfloor can see the elephant in the room and are in agreement that changes do need to be made.

claig · 02/04/2013 23:54

Osborne played to the public gallery, he put on a high-vis vest and spoke to workers on the front line, and the real truth is that the majority of those people agree with his policy of "making work pay" and getting people off benefits.

Miliband wouldn't be able to put on a high-vis vest and convince those people (the real public gallery) because he can only spin about "tax cust for millionaires" and those tricks (like the Labour increase in tax on those people in the last few weeks of their 13 year rule) don't wash with teh public in their high-vis vests. Those tricks and spin tactics only work for champagne socialists at the Guardian. The time for spinning is over, now is the time for action and th epublic knows that and will only vote for people who are honest and stop the spin.

Solopower1 · 02/04/2013 23:52

I agree about the elephants!

Solopower1 · 02/04/2013 23:51

I think Labour will win the next election.

Unfortunately they won't be able to undo all the harm this lot have done - even if they want to.

In a democracy the govt has to do what the people want. So the govt has to make the people want what the govt is doing. The govt's first priority is to stay in power (otherwise it can't do anything). Hence the manipulation etc.

What we have to do, imo, is stop letting them set the agenda, and above all, stop believing them! The world is not as they are presenting it to us! All we have to do is look around us and make up our own minds.

claig · 02/04/2013 23:47

Of course New Labour and their 'light touch' regulation and their waste on climate change Acts that have increased our fuel bills are to blame, but the establishment don't care about all of that. They are worried that the cost of welfare is spiralling upwards and that too many people receive too many benefits and they want to change thge climate so that work pays and that people's benefits are capped.

The real reason behind the welfare restructuring is to get people accepting low-paid jobs rather than receiving benefits. Cuts are being made to show that "work pays" and that the taxpayer does not want to "pay" for people to make a lifestyle choice of being on benefits.

There are elephants in the room that people refuse to discuss, but which everyone knows are true.

claig · 02/04/2013 23:42

Solo, the people do believe the Tories. The workers in the warehouses agree that there should be a cap on benefits.

Labour are losing the argument because they are trying to convince people that the cuts are all bad and should not be made nad that Daily Mail headlines are out of order. But this is avoiding the elephant in the room which the public can see and that is why they will not vote Labour when election time comes and when the crunch comes about choosing who to vote for. Labour are spinning but they are not playing to the public gallery, they are playing to their own crowd and that is why they will lose.

Solopower1 · 02/04/2013 23:38

But the main problem is that we are all looking the way they are pointing, and not at what they don't want us to see. The real reason that we are in this mess is that 'they' have put us here. They are to blame. Not poor people or unemployed or sick people. This government and the previous one are to blame for this, and they want to deflect our attention on to the people who have the least power over anything, and who can't therefore have caused any of it.

And we believe them when they say that they will get us out of it.

claig · 02/04/2013 23:35

They are discussing tomorrow's Daily Mail headline on Sky News now.
Everyone is criticising the Mail for the headline and it is disturbing, but unfortunately that is what many people believe and no one wants to address.

Solopower1 · 02/04/2013 23:32

The problem with this, Claig, is that a) the 'establishment' (yes I agree they are all in this together) are trying to make us believe the ludicrous assumption that unemployed people don't want to work and need to be persuaded to want a job; and b) there are no jobs.

claig · 02/04/2013 23:28

'They can abolish the Welfare State all they like, but they can't abolish the poor. What are they going to do with them?'

I have watched Newsnight and the news today with Osborne at the warehouse talking to the workers.

I am now convinced that the Tories will win the public over to the cuts and that Labour will be quite easily defeated in the battle for public opinion.

It is now quite clear that the entire establishment wants to cut the cost of the welfare state, and that includes the Labour party. They were increasing pensionable age and beginning to introduce workfare style policies and sometimes telling the unemployed to work or lose their homes when they were in power. It is clear that they will also cut welfare but they are just spinning against every Tory cut without telling us what they would do apart from "getting people back to work". Their position is not credible and Osborne has addressed low-paid workers at a warehouse and most agree that their taxes are being used to pay for some welfare payments that are too generous to some people.

I am against teh bedroom tax and some of teh other cuts, but I now agree that housing people in Belgravia paid for by th etaxes of people in warehouses etc is insupportable.

There are injustices with the cuts and that is what Labour is concentrating on. However, there are some cuts that are justifiable and labour do not mention those. That is why they will lose the argument. The workers in the warehouse want to hear what Labour will do about the cuts that need to be made, and of course the spinners in New labour won't address that. That is why they will lose public opinion.

'they can't abolish the poor. What are they going to do with them?'

It looks the the real reason behind the welfare restructuring (which has been agreed by the entire establishment) is to incentivise work, to remove people from benefits by making work more attractive (what they call "making work pay"). I think even this will win public opinion.

They have taken low-paid workers out of taxation (in order to make work pay), they have given tax breaks for childcare (but only for workers, in order to make work pay) and they are making benefit cutbacks and freezes in order to make work more attractive.

I now think that Labour will lose the battle for public opinion, because they refuse to put forward ideas that "make work pay", all they say is "let's have more work", but they try to ignore (for now and for spin purposes) how to incentivise the longterm unemployed back to work or how to cut taxpayer funds housing people in Belgravia.

caramelwaffle · 02/04/2013 23:06

A very good question that you raise Solo

NicholasTeakozy · 02/04/2013 22:51

Debunking neoliberals is like shooting fish in a barrel. They all spout the same ill-informed opinions with nary a fact to support them. Their obvious weapons grade hate for those less well off than themselves show how selfish you have to be to get on nowadays.

To say we can't afford to pay benefits is horseshit. All they need to do is remove tax loopholes, collect corporate tax et voila! But the Tories won't do that, as bang would go their backing.

This government is not representing the people, rather they're selling us to their corporate mates. Fuck them and the horse they stole to ride in on.