If there was a referendum on Europe....

xiaoxiong

"Linked to" indeed. You are not suggesting "dependent on" our membership of the EU. See my earlier post about how the 3.5 million figure was arrived at and misused.

cockleshell European markets account for half of the UK?s overall trade and foreign investments. 3.5 million jobs in the UK are linked to the export of goods and services to the EU. I got those figures from BIS, they're from 2011.

So yeah, what's it doing for us!!??

We export such a tiny amount to the EU, meanwhile we are being ruled by Brussels, and contributing huge funding.What ie it doing for us? Not a lot !

@ retrorobot & xiaoxiong's detailed posts.

All 3 major political parties are liars, they have zero intention of giving us a choice.

I dont know how I would vote just now. But I do expect IN to win the eventual vote

It's a nasty cynical stunt to promise this after the election.

Why don't they hold it next year, prior to a general election in 2015?

It is sad that the level of education and public discourse in the U.K. is so low that there are so many people who have so many entrenched misconceptions about the EU and its workings.

The agreement that Norway (and Iceland) has with the EU is called the European Economic Area. The way this works is that Norway gets free movement with the EU and in return Norway agrees to implement ALL of the EU laws in relation to free movement. Note that Norway has NO decision-making on those laws once they are agreed by the EU Norway has to implement them just like any EU member. Note also that the relevant laws in relation to free movement are not just in relation to free trade in goods. They also cover free movement of persons and freedom to provide services, i.e. immigration, so those of you complain about EU immigrants like me who are paying for their council houses and tax credits (while ignoring the enormous amount of immigration into the U.K. from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh) are not going to get what you want.

The agreement that Switzerland has with the EU (actually, a set of agreements) but essentially work in the same way and provide for free movement of persons - Swiss into EU countries and EU countries into Switzerland. There is one extra provision which allows Switzerland to TEMPORARILY limit the number of EU workers taking up jobs in Switzerland if Swiss unemployment increases by more than 10 percent in a year compared to the average rate in the previous three years. (News article on this here: euobserver.com/social/28100) However, that provision has never been used and would only apply temporarily.

The reasons that Switzerland, Norway and Iceland don't join the EU are in large part because they don't want to be part of the EU's agriculture (Switzerland and Norway) and fisheries (Iceland and Norway) rules.

The EU was willing to agree to the agreements with Norway, Iceland and Switzerland because they are not very large countries and, in the case of Switzerland, road/rail access across Switzerland and the Alps is important to Germany and Italy. However, the EU is not going to agree to free trade in goods or services without free movement of workers.

The unpalatable truth for English people is that the main driver of low skilled low paid immigration (which, in fact, is more from outside Europe than it is from the EU) is tax credits which significantly increase the income of those with children. It's no co-incidence that the rise in this sort of immigration into the U.K. followed from Labour introducing tax credits. The problem of course is that there are huge numbers of English people on these benefits and the EU doesn't let there be one rule for people just because they were born in England and a different rule for others because they were not. It's still remarkable to me that English living in London in council housing at way below market rents complain that they have to compete for work with eastern Europeans who are living in private rented accommodation paying much more in rent.

If England leaves the EU then business in London, which is massively subsidising the rest of the U.K., is going to be decimated. The same will be the case for every car manufacturing plan in the U.K. (auto manufacturing being bright spark in this rececession).

There's plenty wrong with the EU - it's sclerotic decision-making, the grossly overpaid Brussels bureaucrats, the excessive regulation, the has-been politicians. But I'm not sure that the civil servants in Whitehall are much better. However, if you're going to contribute to this debate at least inform yourself about it. Whinging that you want to leave the EU because you've never had a vote to stay in would be like a Scottish person saying that they want to leave the U.K. because they never voted to be part of it.

I am an EU citizien who has been working in the UK for the last 10 years. If the UK were to leave the EU and force people like me to have visa and work permits, I would seriously consider moving elsewhere and so would a lot of people in my situation.

There are hundreds of thousand of us in London alone, highly educated professionals who pay high tax rates and contribute to the success of many British institutions (I work in a Russel Group University where the vast majority of the research staff are from outside the UK). I really don't think that making our life difficult would do a lot for this country's competitive edge.

"UK would claim the money back from Poland."

UK is currenlty heamoraging money for the NHS for NOT claiming back monies owed to the NHS from EU peoples using the NHS. The other EU countries are however very good at claiming back from us when we use one of thier hospitals.

I therefore have no confidence that we are claiming back on other areas from eu states for monies owed.

I just mentioned to a client over lunch about a referendum and what would happen if the UK pulled out. (Electronics manufacturer) He laughed rather nervously and said "don't even say that out loud, that's what keeps me up at night."

larry I posted two very long posts on this thread giving some concrete evidence relating to your statements on regulatory burdens on non-EU manufacturers and the disadvantages they have.

I know what I do is super boring and no one has probably read any of my posts but I'm trying to tell you that far from giving the UK a competitive advantage by freeing our businesses from tonnes of red tape, the UK leaving the EU will have a direct and immediate adverse competitive impact on many businesses here in the UK - not just manufacturers but logistics providers, importers, advertising, retail and legal to name a few off the top of my head.

shakes head and retreats back into lair

I agree with that Morebeta. The indecision will not be a good thing for us and another reason why I don't think Cameron & Osbourne are heavy duty enough to lead us through this.

That said, I look over to the other side and fear Miliband & Balls even more. So it's a case of the least worst choice at the moment.

Like many people on the thread I severely doubt we will ever actually get the referendum. It has been promised before and didnt HAPPEN.

Why wait for 5 years before we have it?

Surely we could declare the terms on which we intend to stay in the EU, declare the date of the referendum to occur some time before the next general election and then open negotiations with the EU.

Problem is David Cameron has made it clear he does not believe in leaving the EU and knowing that the EU will now simply wait until after the next UK election and refuse to negotiate before then.

In the meantime Cameron will gradually become weaker and weaker and look more and more indecisive. The political uncertainty will be very damaging for the UK economy.

In the end I still think a reason will be found not to have the referendum. Some World crisis will emerge such as the break up of the Euro currency, a general global econOmic depression, War in Africa/Middle East.

I would vote to come out of the EU. It would be different if it was just a trade agreement. But it isn't. The union people voted for wasn't what it is today.

Well Somebloke, since Mr Eide is the Norwegian foreign minister, is speaking on topic and on record, I suspect he's talking with both experience and on behalf of his country.

Using your logic then Mr Cameron is merely expressing his opinion.

Ah ok. So what you are saying Larry is that our employees have too many rights as afforded by the EU and that if we left then businesses could be allowed to fire employees easier and our economy would therefore benefit from this newfound 'flexibility'. Correct?

Because that's not what is being said at least not out loud in the press.

As it happens, the UK already has laws which are less strict than our French/German & Spanish counterparts. We were prior to the economic meltdown seen as having a very flexible economy already.

Why have they not already relocated to Hungary or Romania then? They are lower cost and they could export to Europe.

Because our car manufacturing (well the bits that are left) are highly efficient and I assume they've done the calculations and worked out that it's still cheaper to make cars in the UK for the European market. But if we were outside the EU then cars manufactured in the UK would not be counted as EU cars and would then attract import tax. Given how competitive the car industry is, I think this would be the straw which breaks the camels back.

Out. It's not just a question of voting on the status quo. The EU, as its founders intended, is evolving towards political union. I personally don't feel like a "european citizen" in the way that many of my Continental friends do.

Incidentally, i have spoke to quite a few Germans recently who say that despite polling data there is quite a lot of " on the ground" feeling that Germany should pull out of the euro and that the EU needs significant reform.

Dromedary

You seem to be saying that it's good that we're in the EU because it gives better employment rights than the UK government would give left to itself i.e. you think the EU's policies are preferable to those of our government.

But this is short sighted because maybe one day the EU will impose a policy you disagree with - perhaps one that the vast majority of UK citizens disagree with - and you/we wil have no democratic mechanism to change it.

niceguy2

No, "Norway" has warned us of no such thing. One particular minister a Mr Eide, has expressed an opinion. The political classes in most countries tend to be pro EU - even Iceland.

thorckenholt

Nothing to do with the EU, but the fact that modern democratic countries almost never go to war with one another. For Eastern Europe NATO will have had much more to do with it. Which EU countries do you think would have gone to war with one another if the EU had not existed?

Another point, someone above - and this is a common slur - suggested that EU-sceptics were motivated by xenophobia. It's nothing to do with that. You might as well accuse the Canadians of xenophobia for not wanting to be part of the USA.

I would vote to stay in, most definitely. For lots of reasons. Economically, I fear the UK would not thrive outside of the EU for many years to come, if ever. The UK would lose political influence, not just in the EU but around the world. Socially, I agree with BadMissM and Dromedary. I have a horrible feeling that if there were no recourse to EU employment rights, discrimination law etc that most workers in the UK would become a LOT worse off under our current government who couldn't care less about the working conditions of employees. In a rapidly changing world, where the global race is on, I think the both UK and the EU need each other like never before if we're going move forward. Better together, in my opinion.

"Those who are saying we should leave because freed of EU regulations we'd be more competitive are living in a fantasy world."

Statement with zero to back it up. Why is that obviously true? Of course, we would have to produce goods to EU standards. But so does anyone who exports to the EU including China, Japan, U.S etc. It does not mean they have to have the same labour laws. America operates far more on a willing employer/willing employee basis so companies can downsize far quicker in recessions and therefore survive and subsequently prosper and employ more people.

"If we left altogether we'd have to negotiate bilateral trade agreements anyway and how can they be better than the terms we have now when we're in the club and have FREE trade rights!?!?!"

Clearly not with Europe itself but with the Commonwealth, the emerging Asian nations, Africa (for agricultural imports) etc we could negotiate as a sovereign entity and not have to follow the egregiously protectionist policies dictated by Brussels. And our terms with Europe itself would not necessarily be worse. We are a big enough market to be able to negotiate decent terms without being a member of "the club".

"What about big manufacturers such as Nissan or Honda? They set up in the UK so they can sell cars in Europe to avoid import duties. If we're not part of Europe they'll probably move their production to Poland or another low cost EU country."

That is typical pro EU scaremongering. Why have they not already relocated to Hungary or Romania then? They are lower cost and they could export to Europe.

It has to be remembered that, within the UK, GDP is contributed by government, large industry and SMEs. Leaving the EU would have little impact on government and, arguably, a positive impact on SMEs which contribute 40% of UK GDP. There would debatable be a negative impact on large international companies but, relative to our entire GDP, this would not be the economic tsunami the rabid EU lobby would have us believe.

I'd vote to stay in. Yes, there are problems with the EU, but the mature way to deal with that is to work to change them from the inside, not to have a hissy fit and flounce off. I also feel the advantages of membership (trade, free movement, a sense of community amongst people who were shooting at each other 70 years ago) far outweigh the disadvantages.

Yeah......except Norway have actually warned us that all that glitters is not gold!

Norwegian minister warning

As he rightly says "We are not at the table when decisions are made" and that they have "limited scope for influence". Whereas right now we're one of the key players.

The British public has NEVER been asked if we want to BE IN the EU, never mind being asked if we want to leave. Cameron, like all politicians is a liar, he promised to give us a referendum before he was elected, it's just hot air, he's playing a game, we will not be given an opportunity to decide if we want to leave the EU or not.

If we lived in a true democracy we would be asked NOW, not in 2, 3, 4 or however many years time.

I would vote to leave the EU. I wish we were more like Norway, who do not belong....but they are part of the Trade agreements so can trade. And they have such a high standard of living there must be something in it....