Is this really what people want?

I read the link, all that can be concluded from that is that capital flees to where there is growth, it is after that 3% growth, that is all. That is why we have carbon offsetting and the like. The corporations that have the political establishment in their pockets want redistribution. It is nothing what so ever to do with green meanies or bugs being more important than people.

Next you'll be telling us that zero growth and negative growth are good things. Stop watching the BBC and pick up the Telegraph or the Mail.

Are you more important than a bug? Of course you are and don't let any green elitist tell you differently. All of us are more important than bugs. The anti-human message has been spread by the media and has convinced many people. Don't fall into the green trap.

There is no objective moral reason humans are worth more to the planet than anyone. We are here for a mere blink of an eye, even the 2m years our ancestors have been around. I was pleased to see if you are European you are 2 -3% Neanderthal as we bred with them, but not Africans - they did not as the Neanderthals weren't around in the right places to inter mingle.

Xenia you sound like you are turning into a green. Please get a grip and read the Daily Telegraph's Christopher Booker and James Delingpole. If they don't put you right and explain why humans are more important than bugs or elitists, then nothing will.

I don't think it is much to do with that at all. We have always had since the beginnings of time one group growing whilst another does worse. At one stage teh CHinese were ahead of us - the invented gunpowder etc before us.

We were reasonably advanced when the Romans were here 2000 years ago but then we fell into the dark ages. Various empires have come and gone over the planet. Does it really matter? Happiness does not equate to having new cars so it's all fine.

Although of course if we reduced people on the planet to a 6th of the number we have now we'd probably all long term have a better future but then who is to say it is morally better that humans are on the planet at all rather than some other kind of bug or air.

'But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world?s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.'

www.theblaze.com/stories/u-n-official-admits-we-redistribute-worlds-wealth-by-climate-policy/

Yes we are targetted for low growth with carbon tariffs etc while other areas of the world are earmarked for growth. It is no accident. It is wealth redistribution, started with the deindustrialisation of the West, as we witnessed under Thatcher.

Even China has had a break in expansion, people are returning to villages from the factories etc. We have always had cycles. The 1929 crash had similar effects.

The more interesting trend is if we are moving from prosperity in the UK/US to BRIC countries, a big shift for a good few generations, the West on the wane after its hey day, economic refugees from the UK in 30 years' time rushing to emigrate to China or India where the money is.

'This is not a failure of capitalism'. Oh yes it is! It's behind you!

And this low growth environment is not good for business or capitalism, since people are not spending and buying. The capitalist does not want a low growth austerity world, the capitalist wants a return to the good times, but the capitalist is not in charge of events.

This is not a failure of capitalism, instead it shows how in a globalised, interconnected financial world, a string can be pulled which can mean austerity for the entire planet.

The financial market crash was the thing that brought with it austerity across the world, and that austerity is cutting the living standards, rights and benefits of ordinary people worldwide in one go.

You have to realise that austerity is being implemented worldwide and by all parties. If Labour were in power, they would have had to make cuts too. The decision has been made worldwide that this will happen and that is why it is happening. The markets are enforcing it and they punish countries that do not play ball.

To get back to the OP, whoever is at the bottom of it all, there are strings of enablers all the way through the system.

You get people like mcmooncup and others who see what's happening day by day, and hate it. But somewhere in the chain of command there are managers who are intent upon doing the government's dirty work for them, and who insist on the targets set by them. For some it must be a question of keeping their own jobs. But for others - I keep wondering why they have bought into the government's interpretation of events so wholeheartedly. What is it that chimes with them so perfectly?

And ... lest you think I am just off on a ramble, there is an elephant in the room.

So maybe it's the Media, Claig.

'It happened in the library and i think it was Colonel Mustard.'

Can you back that up with some evidence?

Or - penguins! They've been keeping very quiet recently ...

It happened in the library and i think it was Colonel Mustard.

'No Mini, keep up. The bankers are the actors on the stage.'

Correct, and this is only scene 1.

So we've got puppeteers, chess players, pick pockets and poisoners. Feels like we're getting close to a Poirot moment.

'why?'

because we are back to zero and low growth and austerity which is what the puppeteers want.

No Mini, keep up. The bankers are the actors on the stage.

But who is the director??

'I suppose it was simpler back in the day.'

Have you not seen the Borgias on TV? It was a damned sight more complex then.

hang on, the banks are picking the pockets of us, them and the state, wow, why? because surely someone is pulling their strings. Or are the bankers the elite string pullers? surely the puppeteer wouldn't allow Morgan Stanley to get in the way of a good game of chess.