Why aren't you all FURIOUS?!

It is no coincidence that high termination rates in the UK co-exist with rubbish sex education, early sexualisation of children, a significant stress on gender differences ("DS4 (2.6), do you have a girlfriend in nursery yet?" - said with a fnar snigger by neighbour - FFS!) from an early age, poor self-esteem of many teenagers etc etc. I could go on.

There is also a mistaken belief in 'withdrawal'as a method of contracpetion, lots of myths (you cannot get pregnant the first time or doing it standing up or having a shower afterwards), or (my favorite) people who 'do not believe in contraception' but don't have a problem with using termination as a means to plan their family.

I am entirely pro-choice. I don't have to agree with somebody else's decision what to do with their pregnancy. But that's the point: it is THEIR pregnancy, their decision. It is a huge feminist issue. Much as I on an emotional level feel queasy at the thought of late term terminations, I still think they should be legal. I think rather than investing a lot of time and effort in discussion the legal framework for termination, money, effort and training should go in to looking after our young people and enpowering anybody in a sexual relationship to take responsibility for what they are doing.

I have often wondered why the UK has such high abortion rates. I am also aware that we have very high 'cut off limits', in comparison to other 'liberal' European countries. For example, in Germany, the cut off is 12 weeks for any reason, but is open to later abortions for medical reasons. But I also know that in Germany, an average pregnant woman has many more scans as standard, and the general gynaecological treatment available to most women at any time, had more emphasis placed on it as part of her general health.

Does anyone know the abortion limits for other western European
countries? Obviously there are the extremes such as Ireland etc, but I mean the Scandinavians, France, Italy etc...

I ask because I think that this is a cultural issue as well as a feminist one. And I don't think we are honest in the UK, about abortion on demand, whether we have it in reality or not, and what termination for medical reasons means. (the differentiation between a conditional fatal to life vs a disability, severe or otherwise...)

I am tempted to start a campaign to get Hunt and Miller out. They should not be voicing somewhat extreme personal views in these positions of authority.

slutty you made the decision that you felt was right for you. As I am sure did your friend. That's the point of the law giving women a choice. It's all well and good to say other people's choices are wrong - if you know your choice is the one that wouldn't be made illegal.

I think I lot of people don't really understand what it means to be "12 weeks pregnant". I'm 35w pg with my first child and I never knew before that it was measured from the last period, not ovulation or positive test - I never really thought about it.

Explained this plus lengths of time before a woman is likely even to know she's pg to someone on Twitter earlier and I think they actually listened. A small step but I think it's a starting point, if people understand that 12 weeks doesn't mean that women have "three months to do something about it".

doctors get it wrong alot.
they are not always right about disability.
they tell parents that a disabled baby will never be able to do any thing and will be a vegetable...
the baby goes on to have a very good life and surprises everyone.
it is never cut and dried

Pozzled if there is one thing every experienced paediatrician can tell you it's that babies have infinite capacity to surprise you. People overestimate what can be seen clearly and definitely on a scan. So yes there is a large grey area. There are people alive today whose parents were told they would not live.

My ds has a little friend at school who had part of his brain growing outside his skull. Abortion failed, he was born early and alive, was left to die but didn't, so they operated and placed the brain tissue inside his skull and repaired his face. He has lots of issues, but he walks, loves his ipod and generally loves life.

The early as possible as late as necessary is very valid.

I appreciate that Jeremy hunt is entitled to a private view but presumably he is aware that comments made by the health Secretary have a certain amount of significance. I also find it disturbing that another minister ignores official scientific advice, made and given by experts in the field. I would be interested to hear his reasoning behind his view on 20 weeks.

I understand why people feel so strongly about the different treatment of disabled vs 'healthy' foetuses, and I am glad there are MNers who can explain the issues so clearly.

There is one aspect I don't understand though, and it's about conditions incompatible with life. Isn't it generally quite clear at a scan when a foetus will not be able to survive outside the womb? Or are there grey areas? Because I do think that a baby who could never survive is a very different case from one who is disabled, even if the disability was severe.

oh in answer to the op
I am furious, at the obvious diablist discrimination shown on all the threads on this subject

Everything that mrsdevere has said and actually i thank her and others who have posted on threads like this over the years as they made me stop and think and re-evaluate my thoughts.

Current abortion laws are disabilist. If anything abortion needs to be easier to access.

The quote 'as early as possible, as late as necessary' sums up what i believe. I am very grateful that its not a choice i have had to make and i dont think its one that women take lightly. We (as in women) need the right to autonomy of our bodies.

So if you get to 12 weeks and you haven't been able to get an abortion for whatever reason (no time, NHS being slow, health problems, didn't know about the pregnancy etc etc etc) then according to Jeremy Cunt the right thing to do would be go through with the pregnancy, possibly at massive risk to your own mental health, go through labour and the trauma of giving your baby up for adoption, rather than having the option of aborting while you're 13, 14 etc weeks pregnant. For what?! To teach the mother a lesson?

This isn't directed at anyone in particular. It makes me very sad and very angry.

disabilities aside sluttybuttons?? What a disgusting comment.

My ds is perfect, clever, loved and absolutely wonderful. He also has cerebral palsy.

Look at my profile, I know the pics are out of date, ds is 4 now.

But many parents to be would have chosen to abort him if they at 20 weeks got the prognosis we got in NICU when he was 5 days old (cp, blindness, epilepsy, specific learning difficulties). Now here is the rub - even though the very good doctors had my baby right in front of them and did all the clever scans and tests they still got it wrong. He sees, he has no epilepsy, he has no learning difficulties.

A baby is a gift, and not one to be rejected if not '''''''''perfect'''''''''

We would save many more babies if we concentrated our efforts on reducing infectious disease rates amongst pregnant women during the first trimester. Every year, gynae wards are full of pregnant women arduously losing their babies in the aftermath of having flu in early pregnancy, for example. But addressing that wouldn't give many opportunities for moral posturing, would it now?

Pretty balanced article here

I am very, very shocked that the health minister is making this sort of statement (and yes, I realise it is his personal belief not a govt. policy) not based on the science, the way outcomes have improved for the most premature babies etc. etc. but because he "thinks" that a baby's life starts at 12 weeks.
Not 11 weeks 6 days, not 12 weeks 1 day but like a magic light switch at 12 weeks exactly.

I am completely furious, I tell you. There's no scientific basis whatsoever for their bungled assertions.

91% of all abortions in 2011 were carried out before 13 weeks, so perhaps the limit could be lowered.

I just googled it. There was no mention of fetal disability in causes of death.
Bungled abortions featured quite heavily

I am pro choice newnames so do not misunderstand me.

I am asking that people examine their attitudes towards disability before asking 'except disability' on the end of their pro choice statements

It says at the bottom of the article "he stressed the government had no plans to change the law".

Theresa May said there were no proposals to change the law!

I think 12 weeks is too low, but 24 weeks is too high. However, I do wish people would read articles and listen to the news before scaremongering!

Those who are saying it's his private opinion, he wasn't being interviewed as Jeremy Hunt, Private Citizen; he was being interviewed as Jeremy Hunt, Health Secretary.

Buttons, you are massively over simplifying. I was pregnant at 17, disabled and in a very volatile relationship. I continued with my pregnancy, because it was the right choice for me. Doesn't mean it would have been the right choice for everyone.

I'm not furious, because it's his opinion, and he is perfectly entitled to it. If I got angry with everyone who I disagreed with it would be a phenomenal waste of my energy.

I don't share his view but I am glad I live in a country where it's acceptable for people to differ in their beliefs and voice them.

I would be furious with any policy that enacted his view - but that's not what has happened here.

Newnames but a full term aborted baby would still have to be delivered.

I don't understand the point you are making.

There are always risks in childbirth - you can't avoid that fact.