Whatever happened to the Labour Party?

'In any case, politicians the world over are pretty much ignoring climate change so it's hardly top of the 'elite's' agenda.'

It's because the public haven't fallen for it. Even the elite won't continue flogging a dead horse. Climategate was only the beginning of the end.

Good night.

claig the two things really can't be compared. The 45 minute dossier was fudged by spin doctors and politicians who wanted to justify their decision to go to war. The information was shoddy to begin with and on top of that was twisted to suit their own ends.

Climate scientists on the other hand have a vast amount of data and years of analysis - and a pretty clear consensus across academia about what is going on. Unless you think the NASA satellite pictures of the Greenland ice cap melting were faked?

In any case, politicians the world over are pretty much ignoring climate change so it's hardly top of the 'elite's' agenda. Politicians are in thrall to fossil fuels and the oil industry, and climate scientists are the outsiders here.

I don't blame people for ignoring the news - we all like getting on planes and driving cars - but the latest news about the arctic ice cap melt has terrified me. And it terrifies me that the rest of the world is ignoring it.

Sorry for derailing thread. Going to bed now.

marsh, the spin doctors for the elites told us of the "45 minute dossier" and no one except the MPs who voted believed it, then the spin doctors of the elites told us that we had "50 days to save the planet" and no one but the MPs and TV bosses and newspaper editors and government funded scientists believed them. There was no panic in the public about both claims; the only panic was from the spin doctors when they saw that their spin wasn't working.

claig, sorry, I don't agree. It's not about the proles vs the elite, it's about humanity and the very real possibility we might be on the verge of runaway climate change.

If there is an elite in this scenario, it's the oil industry. They are the group with a vested interest in the continuing exploitation of fossil fuels.

marsh, the proles didn't believe Big Brother either in 1984, and they were right. The public have an inner sense, that is the great thing about democracy, the elites have to give the proles a vote and the proles are usually right in their choices, which sometimes annoys the elites, as they find it difficult to get their way. Then the elites increase the spin, they warn of tipping points that will destroy the planet, but that's when the proles know that they are right because as young children they learnt the story of the boy who cried polar bear.

niceguy - Osborne's draconian cuts have worked so well, haven't they?

Well they've only really scratched the surface of what's needed to balance the budget. In reality the level of cuts made haven't been as deep as the Tories would have liked and in fact are about as much as Gordon Brown & Darling pledged they'd make if they got back into power.

So draconian...maybe to you. Necessary, yes. Enough? Unfortunately not. We've another five years of spending cuts to look forward to.

claig on the climate change issue, unfortunately I think the public don't want to believe what they've been told. The concepts are so abstract and seemed so far into the future, people didn't see what it had to do with them in the here and now. Suddenly it has all become a lot more NOW and urgent and still the attitude seems to be 'heads in the sand'.

I genuinely don't understand why it's not being taken more seriously. The travails of the Labour party are pretty small beer in comparison.

'Totally agree with breadandbutterfly & Rosa - people lack the intellectual skills to question what they are told'

Mamma, a lot of people say that, but if that is the case, then how can you explain that despite all of the BBC programmes and newspaper articles on global warming and saving the planet and all the warnings that there are only 50 days left to save the planet and that we have passed the tipping point, that the majority of the public don't believe a word of what they have been fed?

I believe, like Orwell, that hopes lies with the proles.

Sorry, that made no sense. It should say: Economics is taught as an optional subject, increasingly only at A level. Economics and Politics should, in my totally unbiased opinion as a teacher of G&P and Econ, be compulsory in secondary education rather than being taught as part of PSHE.

Totally agree with breadandbutterfly & Rosa - people lack the intellectual skills to question what they are told and young people have no interest whatsoever in politics and economics is only taught as an optional subject, increasingly at A level. Economics and Politics should, in my totally unbiased opinion as a teacher of G&P and Econ , be compulsory in secondary education rather than being taught as part of PSHE.

Back in 2002 Prescott promised hundreds of thousands of new homes. They never happened and that was in a boom period. Why have any more faith that this promise isn't just as empty.

niceguy - Osborne's draconian cuts have worked so well, haven't they?

Clearly what is needed are more draconian cuts...

As someone who teaches young people due to vote for the vote for the first time at the next election, don't underestimate their lack of knowledge and political involvement; they could tell you all about the latest reality show stars but know nothing about politics or economics - bread amd circuses indeed.

claig - afraid you over-estimate today's youth at least.

I think the Labour policy to build more affordable housing could be a big vote winner if done correctly - the high cost of housing is a big issue and getting bigger every year that passes - any govt with the courage to deal with this will be on to a winner.

I think Balls is absolutely right that what is needed is to put money into the real economy by investing in building, providing jobs and homes BUT the focus should be on council homes and 100,000 is a drop in the ocean. still, a step in the right direction.

Yes can't believe that the other 'big idea' announced by Balls was to have a stamp duty holiday - as if that will help anyone apart from a few lucky home owners!

I was interested by an article by Frank Field in this month's Prospect - the basic idea was to link benefit payments to contributions made by the claimant. I would be much more excited by something like this - and it would have a popular appeal.

And the only reason he's suggested the split is because banker's are still about as popular as a fart in a lift. Therefore banker bashing is still considered to be a safe bet and unlikely to lose any real votes.

What you won't hear him say clearly is under any future Labour government they will have to implement further draconian budget cuts.

The scary thing is the other Ed's idea that he will use the proceeds of the 4G spectrum sale and instead of paying our debts off, spend it instead. What that tells me is that Labour are still the spend spend spend government we kicked out and clearly don't get it.

Just listened to most of Miliband's speech - only heard one policy in 30 mins - to separate venture capital banking from high street banking. He will have to do a lot better than that. Does Ed really think that he deserves to be elected just because he went to a comprehensive school?- seemingly the message of his address. That is not very different to Cameron et al. who Ed criticised because they think that they were 'born to rule'.

Apparently Labour's plans, should they be elected, include raising income tax and cutting VAT. Effectively penalising those that work so that those that don't work have less tax burden (VAT is paid by all, not just those that work, whereas income tax is only paid on a salary).

Typical Labour, raise taxes and spend, spend, spend (other peoples money).

"I also think it is eaiser for the parties that support the "status quo" (ie poor people should be poor, rich should be rich, benefits scroungers and illegal immigrants are ruining your country attitudes) to do such leading because it is what people have naturally been led to expect for a very long time"

I don't think the popluation has been naturally led to expect the status quo at all, far from it. Everyone wants to feel better off or that their opportunities or their children's opportunities have expanded. Wasn't the Labour Party anthem in 97 'Things Can Only Get Better'? They promised to change the status quo at the time and one reason they were booted in 2010 is that they changed it for too many of the wrong people. Eliminating child poverty being a case in point.... lots of very bad unintended consequences to that one. There is certainly a healthy realism in the electorate and I think we're no longer so naive as to think politicians can wave wands and make lives better. The party that will be most successful will be the one that gives us the full story, treats the electorate like adults & stops promising quick fixes.

I think Labour can only tinker with change - that is real politik. They have no alternative if they want to win power. Miliband was very good on the Andrew Marr Show and said he would take on vested interests and split up retail and casino banks. He said he would stand up and do what is right for the country. It was a fine show, and let's hope it is for real. But if he intends to do that, he will face huge opposition from the elite and the powerful. The press will turn against him and having the public on his side won't be enough. There is such a thing as real politik, which is why everybody cosied up to Murdoch.

Labour can adopt the rhetoric of Red Robbo if it wants, but that will consign it to the dustbin of history, because the elite will mass against it. So Labour has to accept the Faustian pact and only tinker with change if it wants to get into power at all.

When the media runs stories about benefit scroungers and 'floods' of immigrants, the reason it gains credence is that, like it or not, it often chimes with the fears, prejudices and experiences of real people. That doesn't make those people stupid, bigoted or easily led.

I do not think people are stupd or bigotted and I don't think they are easily led but I do think it is possible to lead them because of the lack of critical/analytical skills which I mentioned before. I also think it is eaiser for the parties that support the "status quo" (ie poor people should be poor, rich should be rich, benefits scroungers and illegal immigrants are ruining your country attitudes) to do such leading because it is what people have naturally been led to expect for a very long time. Parties which would like to change this status quo are, therfore, facing an uphill struggle to get their message across before they even start. Whether or not the Labour Party a party which is actually trying to change the status quo is, I think, what is at the heart of the original post. I would imagine that Claig thinks not, or certainly not at the moment. I, too, have my doubts these days but I have offered my opinion as to why Labour may find it difficult to "come out of the closet," as it were, and really be that party of change.

"the SNP is a populist party that reflects the wishes of the people "

I see it more as a Faustian pact. :) Reflecting wishes today but doubtless reminding the electorate 'you owe us' when it comes to the independence issue.

The problem, to me, is that Labour have no alternative vision to project at the moment. This coupled with their lack of credibility in Economic issues (given the mess they have made of the public finances) makes them very unattractive to many voters.

Symptomatic of this lack of vision, was Ball's 'big' idea announced yesterday - A stamp duty holiday FFS! Apart from being solely designed to appeal to middle Britain, this pathetic, trifling idea, would, if implemented simply hand more money to property sellers.
Where is the alternative voice in British politics?

'Though the SNP's policies, such as no tuition fees, and free prescriptions, are extremely moderate, they press to the limits of the neoliberal constraints accepted by all the main parties. Labour, unwilling to break these constraints, attacks the SNP on priorities.'

Labour has no choice. They do as they are told. It is their misfortune that in Scotland they are up against a party that is out of the fold and doesn't have to do what it is told. Labour are not used to that. In England, all 3 parties are in the fold and in agreement on the essentials - the rest is just theatre.

Interesting article, ItsAllGoingToBeFine.
Don't know anything about Scottish politics, but I think that the SNP is a populist party that reflects the wishes of the people and gives them policies that they want. Labour is not a populist party, which is why it will reject Blue Labour, which would win it more of the public vote. Labour is a party that decides what the people want. In fact, it is not enough Labour who decides, it is the elite who control Labour that make the decisions. That is why they oppose the SNP on their populist and popular policies, because they have no choice in the matter, since that is what the elite wants them to do.

Parties have little room for manoeuvre, they have little choice, they follow a script. They can dupe and fool teh public once or twice, but that is a risky strategy because it will lose them any credibility and lead to them being wiped out at the next election. So they have very little choice apart from ramping up the spin and hoping that the public falls for it.