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Politics

Can someone explain to me in simple terms. USA elections

415 replies

ihatethecold · 31/08/2012 07:44

What are the main differences between Obama and romney?
Is Obama like labour and Romney like very right conservative?

Why does Romney say he will get rid of the healthcare bill that Obama brought in.

Did it not work?
why wouldn't you want people without insurance to access healthcare ?
Thanks

OP posts:
Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 02:29

I am saying it's not contemporary
in order to defend my use of the words she mentioned as being tainted by that undercurrent in the present day

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 02:28

"subverting family values in schools" is a fact, not a country-specific piece of political jargon. It's where the school jumps a mile over the boundary between "pastoral care" and the realm of the parents, family, or medical profession. Which of course is useless for parents with conservative values!

In England it has recently included schools doing the following: referring a girl of 15 for an abortion without ANY parental notification; having the deputy principal of a >80% POC/Muslim establishment keep secrets for sexually active pupils; use sex education materials that are explicit and fail to cover moral issues adequately, even as an end run to parents who object to classroom teaching; fail to mention words such as marriage, chastity, abstinence and fidelity when sex is brought up; fail to disclose pregnancy tests to a parent/guardian for no good reason; teach that traditional values are wrong, unjust, bigoted, immoral or any combination of other "boo words".

WRT that church-income increase link: High levels of religiosity negatively correlated (-.51) with upward economic mobility in June this year, source: Pew. Perhaps I got confused between regular church attendance and self-identification as "highly religious" which are not always coterminous groups.

PigletJohn · 02/09/2012 02:18

I see Math referred to the concept of "commie jews" as an example of right-wing US bigotry under the heading of "historical undercurrents"

Are you saying that it is not part of a historical undercurrent, as she suggests, or are you just saying it in not part of contemporary right-wing thinking?

PigletJohn · 02/09/2012 02:12

"subverting family values" is not a phrase we use in my country. What does it mean?

When you say "Church attendance correlated with income ... is a statistically significant relationship" you mean there are reliable, unbiased statistics published that show this relationship, in a large enough sample to make them meaningful, right? Where can I see them?

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 02:07

No, I never said she'd brought it up... she had mentioned commie Jews so I used it to make it clear that I didn't believe such conspiracies (well debunked in the case of the Protocols) have anything to do with the way Republicans use language in today's political climate.

I cannot say and have not said that no Republican has ever been racist, just that I don't see bigotry as a core value of the party or anywhere near that level.

I wish that the Blue Dog Democrats, Bart Stupak for example (cop-out :( ) would take over the party and make it pro-life, pro-family. Then if the same party opposed killing the unborn and subverting family values as cared more for the sick and the poor, all Christians pretty much could vote for them.

I have been speaking to a few Catholics in various states, none that are tossups though so no difference to the election result: they are desperately torn at the moment. They don't want abortion on demand, gay marriage or subversion of family values in schools. They DO want the ACA upheld minus the contraception requirement, are antiwar and to a reasonable extent pro-welfare. Which puts them between a rock and a hard place.

Oh for a truly compassionate conservative or a truly moderate liberal... someone who would paint the town purple, for social justice, not just partisan red or blue. With the horrifically polarised system that currently exists I hold out little hope... I can pray for such a leader to reveal him/herself.

Church attendance correlated with income is susceptible to anecdotal evidence or even whole pockets of inapplicability but is a statistically significant relationship in the country as a whole.

CheerfulYank · 02/09/2012 01:55

And yes, Math is right about Minnesota. :)

PigletJohn · 02/09/2012 01:53

I don't really follow your point. You accuse Math of bringing up the Protocols, although she didn't, because you think that is an example of US right-wing bigotry that you think she might have had in mind?

CheerfulYank · 02/09/2012 01:52

We have guns and are not racist. :o

The gun thing is complicated...I am one of those, like Bohemian said, from a rural background where guns just are . Everyone's got 'em, no one shoots people with them. My friend's eight year old daughter has a rifle!

It's not as easy as splitting the country via religious/not religious, either. I am a devout Christian, but I am a Democrat and a liberal because I believe that Christ would want me to care for the sick and the poor.

mathanxiety · 02/09/2012 01:51

Yes, there was a groundshift in Catholic/fundamentalist relations after Roe v Wade. But anti Semitism and anti Catholicism and suspicion of African Americans are always there under the surface. Nothing ever really goes away.

The outlook of the John Birch society is reflected in much of what Ron Paul proposed and in a lot of the Tea Party platform, which in turn is influencing more mainstream Republican policies; the GOP ignores the Tea Party at its peril. On issues like immigration and the proper role of the UN (see the career and views of John Bolton, US ambassador to the UN under GW Bush) there is little difference between it and mainstream Republicans. The general 'Patriot' groups and the John Birch Society and the Tea Party have many areas of overlap both wrt positions on various economic issues (trade and globalisation) and in tone (mortal danger to the US posed by too much integration into the rest of the world politically and economically, too much federal power threatening state rights). The labels may change but the sentiment remains.

Nixon has a lot to answer for. He appealed to the sense of many voters that the world had spun out of wasp control and popularised and normalised kneejerk reactionism by calling it the sentiment of the silent majority, with the implication that silence was bred of fear and a sense of solid middle class decency in the face of long haired radicals -- he summoned forth people motivated by fear to vote for him.

Reagan in his turn pushed the envelope that little bit further with the 'welfare queens' and the Willie Horton elements of his election campaign against Dukakis, both crude appeals to pure racism. The Reagan presidency saw the last hurrah of the Cold War but the fear that was instilled in American society from WW2 onwards continues to find expression in the anti-European and anti-any-whiff-of socialism- let-alone communism element of political discourse. Even Newt Gingrich, during the Republican primaries, sought to discredit Romney by revealing that he gasp spoke French. He could have accused Romney of shirking his national duty to go to Vietnam (and could possible have made much more political capital) but interestingly chose to attack Romney on his alleged cultural affinity to Europe instead.

I think Republican voters remain basically motivated much more by various fears than Democrats.

I don't think you can say with any certitude at all that the higher up the income scale you go the less likely people are to attend church services of whatever kind. My own observations of churches in a strikingly 'liberal' and very well off suburban area in the US midwest contradict your assertion. There was one particular street that I recall that had at one end a Catholic church, further on an Episcopalian and further on again an unaffiliated Christian church, and on any given Sunday morning driving on that street was impossible because of the vast numbers of parked cars of congregants. The three Jewish temples spread over two neighbouring suburbs had large congregations and they also stopped traffic, but on Saturdays. All the parked cars for all the congregations tended to be newer models, oodles of SUVs, lots of expensive European brands. Churches of all kinds all over the US tend to be much more full than in Europe.

I don't know where you are getting your widely acknowledged facts about who is a member of the Democratic party, and you are forgetting about the huge amount of urban poverty. There are states that are predominantly rural that vote Democratic and some that are swing states. There are states that have a large urban population and also a large rural one like Illinois. Maybe Minnesota too..

'and hating those who support their main ideas is exactly what liberals would want them to do so as they'd lap up the split vote and win all their electoral campaigns.'
This is conspiracy theory talk.

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 01:49

1920s for Protocols as a US issue, apart from in the minds of fevered extremists, but right up to the 1950s McCarthy witch hunt and attempts to interfere with the NAACP through commie spy charges it may have been a reason why the (radical, Bircher/Strom Thurmond) Right would have used words like elite or professional to describe their political opposition.

Still the point stands, there is a perfectly good reason to use those terms in the fifty years passed since then, continuing today, without any connection to Jew hatred or commie fear. I challenged the point because I found it to be yet another attempt at slandering conservatives as bigoted.

PigletJohn · 02/09/2012 01:42

Oh yes, I see Henry Ford and Adolf Hitler continued propagating them long after they had been discredited. Are you thinking of the 1920's or the 1930's?

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 01:42

To falsely accuse the NRA and other pro-gun groups of racism for example was way below the belt.

If you'd prefer to support PFAW, PNHP, ACORN, NEA, ACLU, Planned Parenthood, NARAL, Center for "Reproductive Rights", that thing Maria Wright Edelman's into, Sierra Club and the many other anti-conservative lobby groups that's up to you. Just don't make lying race-related allegations against a group when you happen to disagree with their gun politics. Play fair...

fridakahlo · 02/09/2012 01:40

I would love to say that your right and that I completely respect and accept your opinions (cos I'm tolerant like that, something to do with being liberal ) but while you support the dictating of what women can and can't do with their OWN bodies , then nope sorry I can't.
By the by, the term is pro-choice, NOT pro-abortion.

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 01:38

Because math brought up "commie Jews" which was a stereotype from that time period, I was showing how outdated her reasoning was in why modern Republicans use phrases like "metropolitan elite liberal" to attack their opponents or would equate "professional" with Democrat supporter. I was trying to shut down the ridiculous Jew-baiting after the even worse race-baiting pro-Obama comments were made several times before today.

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 01:34

@fridakahlo
You say that like it's not a bad thing!

For those who believe that the baby boomers went too far off course on a whole bundle of issues, for conservative parents who wish their children to pick up conservative values, it is.

PigletJohn · 02/09/2012 01:30

why did s/he accuse math of bringing up the protocols of the elders of zion?

fridakahlo · 02/09/2012 01:21

@Extrospektiv
"This is everything I'd expect from Mumsnet though, A.K.A. metropolitan elite liberal feminist professional pro-abortion pro-gay marriage pro-mandatory sex ed pro-redistributive taxation pro-state funded healthcare anti-gun anti-austerity set."
You say that like it's a bad thing!

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 00:58

I've seen that argument used about "socialised medicine" before vs. other government run services... it's just a term that is used when something has been in private hands for the entire existence of the country.

I'm somewhere in between. Affordable Care Act, usually in derogatory contexts branded "Obamacare"=good. "Medicare for all" may be too far in the direction of big government and lack of personal responsibility. Some people assume that not believing in free-at-point-of-need healthcare is automatically uncompassionate or poor bashing on this side of the pond; Europeans tend to prefer collective responsibility after WWII as has been said, but this may change over time too. I'm a moderate in US economic terms which would make me fiscally conservative here.

People who don't like the idea of state-run schooling call them "government schools", which is always said with a sneer. I would not go that far, Ron Paul would like to defund them- he is admirable on the odd thing but way off base with this.

PigletJohn · 02/09/2012 00:41

Hello GreenD

I see you use the term "socialised medicine"

Following on from what was said above, what do you see as the key moral difference between education, funded out of taxation and free at point of use, and healthcare, funded out of taxation and free at point of use?

Why is one called "state" and one called "socialised?"

If one "good" and one "bad?"

If so, why?

Extrospektiv · 02/09/2012 00:41

Conspiracy theory, mathanxiety. I am not a Birther or a 9/11 "truther" (i.e. liar) and your idea that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion/ Reds under the Bed years are the cause for me or Republicans to use words like professional/MEL/ Establishment as terms of suspicion is just as ridiculous as those two ideas. The sensible explanation is as follows:

Religious structures of social import and attendance at organised religious events tends to decline with increased wealth in society, even if those people maintain a strong private spirituality. As GOP voters tend to be more religious they are concentrated in the poorer part of the USA. This is well known.

All the worst poverty, etc. figures are in the red states of the south and midwest and their economy is still based more around manufacturing, agriculture and lower level service industries so a lot less of the people will be professionals, post-bachelor degree holders, and so on. It is a widely acknowledged fact that the upper middle class, who I refer to- i.e. doctors, scientists, academics, middle managers in state/fed govt agencies, school principals, not billionaires who donate more than these people's annual earnings to GOP super PACs for tax reasons- are very much more likely to vote Democrat.

Do you know how many people are in the John Birch Society or similar now? They just have zero influence on GOP politics. McCarthyism and anti-semitism is in their past. Anti-Catholicism: while I believe it is still harboured in the hearts of many due to their fundie beliefs, they realise that promoting life and family values in a democracy through overlapping consensus between different groups is the only way forward politically, and hating those who support their main ideas is exactly what liberals would want them to do so as they'd lap up the split vote and win all their electoral campaigns. RCC vote has been a great boost to the GOP since Roe and other social issues took centre stage; now the generation gap is opening up with young Catholics serious about getting a pro-life, traditionalist president and their older coreligionists continuing their own tradition (of lifelong Dem support, cf. unions, war, civil rights, other issues.)

mathanxiety · 02/09/2012 00:34

They can't. The Supreme Court has ruled that bans on guns by states and municipalities are unconstitutional. Cities that had handgun bans can no longer ban guns. Chicago had a ban and it was overturned.

Illinois remains (iirc) the only state to retain a ban on concealed carrying of weapons. Only the technical details of gun carrying and ownership can be fiddled with. The fundamental right to own and bear arms has been stated and upheld time and time again.

The constitution has a lot to say about state's rights vs federal rights and there was also a civil war fought on the issue...

GreenD · 02/09/2012 00:29

You can't compare people living in rural states with people living in cities like New York. People in rural parts of Arizona, New Mexico etc can't rely on the police, their nearest police station might be more than an hours drive away. America is really too big to have a single national government telling everyone what to do. The vast majority of government should be turned over to individual states. If the coastal states want to ban guns and have socialised medicine, they should absolutely be able to do so.

mathanxiety · 02/09/2012 00:11

I think there are a lot of historical undercurrents to the language used by the republican right.

'Elite', 'professional', 'establishment', and the distrust of government, the perception that it is an alien and malign entity -- all harken back to the days of FDR and the New Deal and following on that the Civil Rights movement. Behind some of the suspicion is the idea that it consists of well-educated Commie Jews pulling strings. FDR and the Kennedy and Johnson administrations featured prominent Jewish technocrats doing things that upset fundamentalist Christian susceptibilities.

JFK had the added disadvantage of being Catholic and from Boston. Catholics were as popular in the South as Jews were. Only after Roe v Wade did some protestant denominations come to an uneasy acceptance of the right of Catholics to participate in American democracy.

The Birther thing and the Joe Wilson (Rep.- SC) outburst during the State of the Union address a few years back would never have happened under a white president.

The feelings and the tone of the Republican right on social issues (and attitude to Catholics) mirror some of the Unionist/Loyalist politics of Northern Ireland. Not surprising since many of the places in the US (the south and south east and spreading into the south west) where Christian fundamentalism and conservative social values predominate are populated by people of Ulster Scots Presbyterian and Calvinist stock.

dreamingbohemian · 02/09/2012 00:11

Flowery, it's a really difficult issue. I'm completely anti-guns so I have a hard time understanding it myself. I think it's actually a couple different strands of thought.

Some people are really afraid/paranoid about crime and self-defence. Maybe because they have been victims in the past, maybe because they are buying into often-racist stereotypes, but this kind of fear drives a lot of pro-gun feeling. The idea is that the criminals all have guns and 'decent people' need to be able to protect themselves (unspoken subtext: because you can't rely on the police).

Sometimes it ties into the anti-government feeling. There is a knee-jerk reaction against the government telling you what you can do, especially if you think it's guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.

Some people just really like guns. Maybe they grow up in rural settings where everyone has guns and it's no big deal.

It's hard to explain why people want gun rights when obviously there is a lot of harm from guns. But then, you could ask why Brits allow alcohol to be sold so cheaply and at all hours when clearly there is a lot of deaths and violence because of alcohol abuse. The vast majority of gun owners are responsible and resent being restricted because of people who aren't.

I personally think it's a serious pathology in American culture. But then I'm a bedwetting liberal east coaster Smile

flowery · 02/09/2012 00:01

I have a question. I find the whole gun control issue in America utterly baffling.

Could someone enlighten me a bit? US per capita gun deaths are way way higher than ours, we have strict gun controls, they don't. Do those weirdos people who argue against gun control and for their right to purchase sub machine guns genuinely think that's a coincidence or do they think those deaths are a reasonable price to pay to preserve an outdated, completely out of context right to bear a musket?

I realise my own views are clear in this post but it is a genuine question. I am genuinely baffled by it and would be interested to hear the logic.

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