Academies to be able to hire non-union, non-PGCE teachers

Denise34. Secondary Academies in my town certainly won't 'go out of business'.

All seven Secondary schools will be Academies as of 1st September this year. In fact, even the two Grammar schools are Academies, so that makes all 9 schools.

Five out of those 9 schools are going to be run as an Academy Consortium. In other words, they will have the same admission criteria, and the same wages, contracts and working standards for teachers as each other.

How will they go out of business if your only choices in the entire town are between 9 different Academies, 5 of which will be jointly run?

It's a State endorsed Monopoly.

Denise34
they'll soon be out of business

please explain that comment in the context of a state funded monopoly - which is what academy schools are

I think it's because, despite the training, you still get abysmal teachers who should never have qualified. The PGCE may be fine if you're keen and bright and capable but there are people getting through it who do not belong in front of a class.

But there are incompetent people in every profession - that doesn't invalidate the system of training they undergo. There are abysmal lawyers, doctors, engineers... would you on that account allow hospitals to hire bright, capable unqualified people to care for patients? If there are people getting through PGCE who don't belong in front of a class then headteachers have the freedom not to hire them; believe me there are plenty of capable teachers applying for every vacant teaching position. What I would like to know is where this idea that so many teachers are incompetent comes from - sure I have encountered some, but no more than I would expect to find in any walk of life, and I should think the chances of unqualified teachers being incompetent would be significantly higher.

I think this thread is confusing PGCE with QTS. A PGCE is only one route into teaching.

How do you work that out, when 50% of schools are already academies?

If Academies are hiring teachers that aren't up to the job, they'll soon be out of business.

Themumsnot

Well, yes, you can, but the PGCE and GTP are set up to do this in a very structured way that ensures you are getting good teaching, guidance and support. Schools appreciate having PGCE students also because they go in there with something to give back too - my university-based first term meant I had ideas and resources to contribute to the departments I was working in. Also, the way the programme is structured means that you are not learning from just one teacher, you are learning from lots of teachers in at least two different schools - schools which are chosen to provide a breadth of experience - and you are monitored and advised both by the schools you teach in and the university. My PGCE programme was excellent, and I honestly don't see why people with no knowledge or experience of the system are so eager to jump in and denigrate a training that they don't understand.

I think it's because, despite the training, you still get abysmal teachers who should never have qualified. The PGCE may be fine if you're keen and bright and capable but there are people getting through it who do not belong in front of a class.

Is the solution to junk it completely and allow schools to hire clever, capable people who haven't been through the PGCE? I don't know. But I don't think anyone can claim that when a person goes through the PGCE system that definitely makes them capable of standing in front of a class and teaching, because sadly for our children that clearly isn't the case. Perhaps it needs to be more rigorous?

I do agree that it is crucial to get feedback and support from an experienced teacher on how to teach. But you can do all that without PGCE.

Well, yes, you can, but the PGCE and GTP are set up to do this in a very structured way that ensures you are getting good teaching, guidance and support. Schools appreciate having PGCE students also because they go in there with something to give back too - my university-based first term meant I had ideas and resources to contribute to the departments I was working in. Also, the way the programme is structured means that you are not learning from just one teacher, you are learning from lots of teachers in at least two different schools - schools which are chosen to provide a breadth of experience - and you are monitored and advised both by the schools you teach in and the university. My PGCE programme was excellent, and I honestly don't see why people with no knowledge or experience of the system are so eager to jump in and denigrate a training that they don't understand.

There's no "could" about it. As always, follow the money.

I hear what you are saying Mumsnot. I can't remember exactly now (i'm that old lol) but he was in fairness an experienced teacher. You are right, he could have struggled at first but then he may not have either. I don't know.

I do agree that it is crucial to get feedback and support from an experienced teacher on how to teach. But you can do all that without PGCE.

Slug, you could be right. It could be all about pay and unionisation.

Because, niceguy2, unqualified, un-unionised teachers can be paid less.

Niceguy - you say one of your best teachers wasn't qualified, but how long had they been teaching by the time they taught you? What the PGCE and NQT years do is give you a very intensive and well-supported route to develop your skills - without them I am sure you would get there, but it would take longer and in the meantime it will be harder for you and, crucially, your pupils won't be getting the best of you. One of the great things about the PGCE for me was that every time a taught a lesson someone experienced was on hand to give me instant feedback on how to improve for next time. Similarly, for lesson planning, assessment, classroom management and all the hundred and one other skills you need to learn to be an effective classroom teacher: skills some people on this thread don't seem to even acknowledge exist.

I guess for me the question comes down to why does Gove think this is necessary?

Because - as someone has pointed out on the other thread - academies are having problems attracting qualified teachers. Can't think why

Like I say, I'm in two minds about it. Undoubtedly the PGCE is a hard qualification to get. I doubt I'd be able to get it from what a friend of mine who recently did it went through.

I guess for me the question comes down to why does Gove think this is necessary? Is there a serious shortage of suitably qualified teachers so this is a way of maybe attracting some people who may otherwise be put off teaching? If there's not then you have to ask yourself why fix something which isn't broke?

Like I say, one of my best teachers wasn't qualified but at the same time as a parent I'd be very wary of an unqualified teacher. So I can see it from both sides.

themumsnot What a great idea!

Surely Michael is the ideal person to trial his idea? Ex-journo, good degree....

Congrats on PGCE !

Exactly, themumsnot. You worked bloody hard to get your PGCE, while already having subject specific qualifications too.

Why can't these other would-be teachers do the same? If they wouldn't pass the PGCE or GTP or NQT year, then I don't want them teaching my DC's.

Why is that such a difficult thing for Gove to get his head round?

Maybe because he is an oily little elf, with twattish tendencies that knows nothing about teaching, and wishes to 'write off' between 30% and 60% of DC's from a very early age?

He has no idea how difficult it is for TRAINED teachers to differentiate effectively for a class of 30 pupils where one could be working 3 years below their chronological age, and another could be working 3 years above their chronological age.

If a trained teacher, who has done their PGCE and NQT year, finds it hard to do this, how will someone totally inexperienced, with no training on how to do this, and with no teaching qualifications manage it?

I certainly wouldn't want any of my DC's being taught by someone going into teaching through this route in their first two years or so. Why should my DC's be guinea pigs for something like this?

MY PGCE certificate arrived in the post this morning. It's a piece of paper, sure. But that piece of paper represents 9 months of the hardest work I have done in my life - most of it in the classroom teaching real children and being mentored and supervised by real teachers.
I am probably exactly the sort of person that some posters on here think should be allowed to go into a classroom and get on with things without the benefit of that piece of paper - I'm in my mid-forties, I have a first class degree in my subject and more than 20 years experience in a professional environment. There is no way that I could have done that. The PGCE is a huge learning curve and to those on here whose views on its inefficacy are merely based on ignorant prejudice I say, try it for a week and then come back and tell us what you think. I certainly wish Michael Gove would.

And why is it that all these 'wonderful' people that Gove wants to become unqualified teachers CAN'T do a PGCE. Would it possibly be because they wouldn't PASS the PGCE and the NQT year?!.

That is what bothers me, if they would be such great teachers, then why don't they do a PGCE or a GTP? Unless they know they wouldn't pass. In which case, I don't want them teaching MY DC, thank you very much.

100% of Secondary schools in my town will be Academies from 1st September. When DD started there 3 years ago, I chose the school partly BECAUSE it wasn't an Academy. Now for her final, most important two years of education, it will be. Choice? HA!

Also 5/7 of the local Secondaries have formed an 'Academy Consortium', run in the same way, with the same hiring terms for new staff, the same admissions criteria etc.

All of which means that there is NO element of choice in whether your child attends an Academy.

My DS's primary is also converting to Academy status on 1st September. I have no choice but to continue to send my two DS's there, as there is an extreme shortage of local primary places for DS2, already in a bulge class. He has been on waiting lists for 6 other local schools for 4 years now, and his highest position on a waiting list is 20th, one school he is 35th on the waiting list.

So no, for lots of people, there is no choice whatsoever about sending their DC's to an Academy.

Of course a piece of paper doesn't make a good teacher. A piece of paper also fails to make you a doctor/ train driver/ firefighter etc etc It's the years of training which you have to go through and PASS in order to acquire the piece of paper whch makes you a good teacher or whatever else.

You'd rather a natural teacher than a qualfied one that can't do it, but you've no idea how to determine between the two? Well that's what the piece of paper is for, it shows that you have PASSED all the training and have been assessed as able to teach.

Why are we assuming that a teaching qualification does not mean you can teach? Does a medical qualification mean you don't know how to be a doctor?? Of course not, it means you can do the job. So does a teaching qualification.

Would I like to be saved from a burning building by a naturally heroic sort of chap who blunders in and may well have a bit of luck on the day or by someone who has done lots of training and knows how fires spread and how to use all the equipment?? Hmmmm.....tough one!

I'm in two minds about this one. We need good teachers. That much is not in doubt. But does a piece of paper make a good teacher? Not necessarily.

One of the teacher's who inspired me and without whom I wouldn't be where I am today. He wasn't qualified at all. But by god could he explain things.

Given the choice I'd rather have a person who is a natural at teaching than a qualified teacher who cannot.

But quite how you determine that I've no idea. I guess giving the headteacher the option to do this 'could' be a good idea. But at the same time I can see how this could quite easily backfire.

Really? I hadn't realised, only a handful in my authority, fewer than 6% of schools.

LFN

Your arguements are only beaten in magnitude by your ignorance.

HTH

More than half of all secondaries are now academies - and rising. It will be 3/4 within a year ....

Odmedod - given how many schools are academies (almost all in the county I live and work in) where do you suggest parents send their children as an alternative?