Society: why has it gone and how do we get it back?

Jupiterscock

I take great exception to the statement that community doesn't exist where peopel arewell off. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it was Leftie Fantasy Bullshit where some people want to believe that community only exists with good working class folk singing knes up mother brown round the Joanna.

Completely agree with this assessment. The thinking behind it is the same Class War nonsense that the Guardian has been squirting out for three decades.

I take great exception to the statement that community doesn't exist where peopel arewell off. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it was Leftie Fantasy Bullshit where some people want to believe that community only exists with good working class folk singing knes up mother brown round the Joanna.

I live in an affluent village. I have never, in my student years and in all my years in varying towns and cities, ever known a community like it. Everyone waves, knows each other and each other's business! Our Jubilee party was legendary and we look out for each other .
It's actually pretty idyllic. And it's frightfully middle clarss. [tongue].

Some people think that poverty is good for the soul. They weren't in favour of rock'n'roll. Remember how some preachers smashed up the early discs and called it "the devil's music". The party is over they say, you've changed society, you've got so many freedoms that you have tipped over the cart of 'traditional moral values'. Some think it is time to turn back the clock, to impose some 'global authority' and maybe some 'austerity', for the "common good".

Exactly, that is what they want and that is what they will give us and they will say it is for the "common good".

There will be more socialist DNA databses for the "common good", more sanctions to "save the planet" for the "common good", and what they say is a return to 'traditional moral values' for the "common good".

They will increase and extend their 'global authority' for the 'common good', but they won't ask the common people if they agree in a referendum, that is against the "common good".

You are right that it is all about compromises. If we are lucky we will live in a time of balance when the pendulum has not swung too far in favour of individualism or the "common good", if we are unlucky we may witness 'global authority' for the 'common good'.

We may witness the paradox that the "common good" may turn out to be bad.

the vatcian and traditonal values - ha! Yes 'traditional' values are good for the patriarchy and vested interests of the church, not so good for women...

It is fascinating to see the Vatican in tune with the socialist dream of 'global authority'.

www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/us-vatican-economy-idUSTRE79N28X20111024

We may well see the diminution of individual liberty and the rise of communitarianism. But, we will see the return of 'traditional' values, which is what the Vatican wants. We will see less freedom, less liberty, less individualism. more "global authority", less independence, less national sovereignty, and what we are told will be more community and the "common good".

We have witnessed more freedom, more liberalism, more diversity and more difference, more individualism as we have become more prosperous. Individual rights and freedoms were to the fore. There is a danger that as things get tougher, that individual freedoms may decline, that community consensus rises and that 'traditional' values and cohesion limit individual freedom.

That is the tide of human affairs, things go in cycles and the pendulum swings from one pole to the other.

There are good and bad aspects to individualism and good and bad aspects to community. Human beings change and adapt according to the circumstances that they find themselves in, be that crisis or comfort.

'The Blitz spirit was a masterpeices of propaganda, but necessary to ensure that people worked together for the common good'

But most people do work together for the common good, they don't need propaganda to make them do so. The evacuation of children from cities to escape the bombing was not propaganda , it was real, and the nation did pull together.

Yes, there is a danger of the rise of nationalism and xenophobia when things get tougher economically, which is why the Greek nationalist party has something like 10% of the vote, which it never had before. There is less community when things are good economically, and there is less danger of a rise of nationalism too.

The flipsde of community is xenophobia and tribalism - you can't have it both ways, so compromises are necessary, hence why religions eist to try to unite more people thant the anthropological 'group of 200' by inventing riutals and cusotms for peopel to follow. The Blitz spirit was a masterpeices of propaganda, but necessary to ensure that people worked together for the common good. Would be useful if poepl on this thread with a very rose-tinted view of history actually read some contemporary accounts of those times.
Being homosexual, black, 'unmarried mother' etc in 1940s Britain was not the cultural 'norm, and people suffered enormously, as they still do in much of the world. We are unbelievably fortunate in this country today that our 'society' is far more diverse and tolerant of alternative ways of life than in the past, and better for it.

And if you listen to the accounts of people who sheltered from the bombs in air raid shelters under ground, they say that there was never again such a strong feeling of community. That's not "bullshit", that's humanity.

'british spirit in war time is hardly community either'

If the evacuation of children from London and other cities to escape the Blitz to go to the safety of the country wasn't the height of community, what was it?

When times are good, the individual, independence and freedom are paramount - I'm alright Jack is in the ascendant - but when times get bad, community takes precedence over the individual and people vote for a stronger State.

'how did community just get dumbed down to national pride'

and in real economic crisis and disaster, there is a rise of the extreme left and the extreme right, as people look for more national cohesion, either under community communism or nationalism.

'bullshit'

It may be bullshit to you, but it is not to millions of good people. The Jubilee was a demonstration of community spirit.

As conditions get tougher, people pool together. People lend more to charities and help their neighbours. Just like in Greece, where food banks are set up and people help those in the greatest need and landlords waive rents for months on end, in the hope that people can recover.

Community spirit never dies and it gets stronger the worse things get and the worse the state of the nation becomes. What can't destroy us, unites us. In adversity we find strength and in catastrophe we find community.

jubilee - was a day or two hardly a community - more of an event

the torch - i think people come together in the same way they do when a carnival comes to town - that is a spectacle - not a community.

british spirit in war time is hardly community either and if you think that this countries financial crisis has somehow created a british war time spirit where people help each other out - that is a different matter entirely - in addition to just being wrong

how did community just get dumbed down to national pride and british spirit

bullshit

I thought it meant made similar? I'm not certain so happy to be corrected.

I'm not certain it's as simple as saying "get richer" I think it is more to do with the fact that we have a need to meet our basic needs and of course desires. When everyone has the same, you have a sense of community. When people are in competition they are not inclined to being part of the community.

I was also thinking about the word commune, as in "commune with nature" does that term mean in harmony with, not in competition with?

I thought liminal meant on a threshold? A time of change, halfway through a transition?

'We haven't had a comprehensive national disaster for a while either.'

Did you miss the grade inflation and dumbing down in schools?

I know claig, it's hard work, It took me 20 years to fully get to grips with capital and it took marx at least as long to write it

The word community I thought was french , comuner which is commune,hold in common or communité which translates as communist. All words come from latin Communitas, meaning "Communitas is an intense community spirit, the feeling of great social equality, solidarity, and togetherness. Communitas is characteristic of people experiencing liminality together. This term is used to distinguish the modality of social relationship from an area of common living" (liminality means to make similar)

So it would seem, that in order to have community the people must first have something in common. In view of the fact that we are individuals pitted against each other for scarce resources and the material aspect of our life central to existence and how we feel about ourselves, it is little wonder we don't have community.

Hi Mini . Rome wasn't built in day, I can't turn a leaf overnight

This sounds like Marxist class warfare claptrap. A community unites all classes, just as in World War II, posh toffs and working class people united and fought for the same nation

That's because the toffs were issued with ration books

And there was me thinking Claig had turned a leaf I'm yet to read all your thread claig, I'm getting through it, I don't know what to add, youv'e got it covered!

We haven't had a comprehensive national disaster for a while either.

The richer people get, the more freedom and independence they gain, and the less they feel they need the help of others, so the bonds of community are weakened. As people become poorer or are in trouble, they need more help from others and they get closer. It's the same for religion, as they get poorer they become more religious and pray for help.