Society: why has it gone and how do we get it back?

culture is language, traditions, and beliefs usually passed down from previous generation, within this there may be community, however culture and community are not the same thing

Thatcher perpetuated individualism and broke communities and replaced with self interest.

You are flinging veiled insults and that's not cricket

'japan - that isn't community spirit - that's cultural expectations'

Where do you think cultural expectations come from, Mars?
They are the result of community. No man is an island. The community and society of individuals create their own cultural expectations.

Greece as an example is a misnomer, and charity and community are not the same thing necessarily.

'bullshit, crime rises and people look after their own interests - thatcherism in action'

'Stating that i commit crime is a comment not worth responding to.'

Oh so it is not you, it is just the Thatcherites, the Tories who look after their own interests.

Community spirit such as you mentioned in Japan claig I don't think comes from the individual exactly, although obviously the individual has to decide to behave according to it; that would be helped by being socialised to that culture as you grow up in it.

Actually have we mentioned religion on here? Growing up in a religion is a years-long process of learning to be part of a community and to put others' needs before your own. I have become unable to believe in the supernatural side any more and am no longer part of an organised religion, but I believe the latter certainly has the potential to foster community spirit when directed by the right human leaders.

no it doesn't mean they have less community spirit - it doesn't mean they have more either

'We are not Greece.'

I am taking Greece as an example to demonstrate the universal principle that human charity and compassion and community spirit increases in a crisis. Do you think the british people would not be just as charitable as the Greek people? Of course they would.

so individual community spirit in the form of giving a begger some money? i don't understand how this is community, it is a well intentioned good deed, or an act or charity - but community i don't understand?

' That's not charity that's desperation.'

Doesn't the lottery give to charity too. I think it should give more, but that's another discussion. Of course people spend more on lotteries in hard times, because they need hope and wish that they could win some money. That doesn't mean that thgey have less community spirit.

I dont have a negative view of humanity, and i do not commit acts of crime, please stop with veiled insults, just debate - or don't

'Ahh, but now you are talking of individual chairty'

I am talking about community spirit which stems from the individual, not some charities who tell people not to give money to beggars or homeless people.

japan - that isn't community spirit - that's cultural expectations

i maintain that evacuation - manatory or not ( and it was) is not community

The miners did come together in solidarity, they did have community and thatcher broke it. I am not saying that community never existed - i agree with you wholehearedly on this, the miners did have community.

the things you are attributing community to currently such as the jubille is not community

'"People had nothing for themselves. Farmers gave sacks of potatoes to miners"

DH and i both work closely with communities and charities and i can tell you first hand - a quick google will tell you that charities are facing a quick downturn.
Ahh, but now you are talking of individual chairty - which isn't what you previously stated.

I was on the phone with the Big Lottery last week and they were telling me that they had extra funds because people (poor people) are buying more lottery tickets. That's not charity that's desperation.

We are not Greece. I went there recently and saw the communal food gardens and the desperation of people coming over from Athens to the islands. This countries experience is just not the same.

and simply stating that people a homogeneous uniform society of people in the UK are coming together in some kind of very british war time spirit way to help each other out is simply not true.

Stating that i commit crime is a comment not worth responding to.

Thanks, joan. I don't know the history of it. But I think that teh consent that is necessary for it to work, is still due to an underlying community spirit.

We are often told that there is less crime in a country like Japan than here. We are told that criminals are ostracised there and that there is more shame in being a criminal. I think that is another example of an underlying cohesive community spirit which influences behaviour and consent and leads to less crime.

You seem to have a negative view of humanity. You think people only look after their own interests. So who do you think helps people out of teh crisis? Do you think it is teh government? Do you think the Greek politicians will help their people out of their crisis or will it be the Greek people?

Who do you think helped teh miners in their long strike? Was it teh communities who collected cash and clothes and children's toys or was it teh Thatcher government?

Who do you think puts money into fire service collection tins when they go on strike? It is teh public, the community who support their fire service and other strikers in crisis.

When the chips are down, it is teh community who stick together and help each other out.

www.hemsworthandsouthelmsallexpress.co.uk/news/local/community-united-for-miners-strike-christmas-1-1864129

'were the families who took the children in, ordered to do so mandatorily'

Yes. Officials came round, counted the number of bedrooms and therefore the number of children/families you could take and that was the number you were expected to take. You could say there was community in that I don't think people rebelled against the system that much. Also there was choice in which children you took, hence the sort of cattle market at railway stations on arrival.

'it wasn't community - it was mandatory evacuation.'

And were the families who took the children in, ordered to do so mandatorily? I doubt it, but I don't know the history. I would expect that it required consent and that it was felt necessary by communities who made sacrifices in order to help children in a time of crisis. I think it was an example of people pooling together to help each other out.

'bullshit, crime rises and people look after their own interests - thatcherism in action'

It does rise among a minority, but the converse is that community spirit increases among the majority. It is a natural human defence and protection mechanism. Under Thatcherism, the bankers and teh traders and teh champagne and the Porsches was lauded, now some bankers are pariahs and that is among all classes. Spivs, scammers and loan sharks are looked down on by all classes except the criminal class.

'what people? this isn't greece.'
Greece is an example of what happens as a crisis gets worse. What happens is that people pool together and support each other and demonstrate together against teh politicians and bankers who put them into dire straits. Community spirit strengthens and communist and nationalist parties grow in strength as people want more cohesion and community policies. Greece is not unique, it is teh same as any other country in crisis, and what happens there will happen elsewhere if a similar crisis occurs.

'the jubilee was a demonstration of nationality and a celebration not community spirit'

But you are failing to understand that nationality is community, a nation is a community and the feeling of patriotism and nationalism springs from the well of community and unison. It is teh rootedness that combines individuals in a greater whole, that combines them in a national community. People don't turn out because they think about it, they do so instinctively and this indicates the extent of their community spirit. In an atomistic society with no community, they would not feel the link and would not turn out in the rain.

'you are mixing things up'
I am mixing things up, because they are interrelated. It is a holistic phenomenon, not a discrete, independent phenomenon.

'i think you'll find that charities get a financial hit along with the rest of us'
Some official charities may well take a hit. Maybe Bono's charities don't receive as much money as before. Maybe people read about the percentage of their money that actually goes to their chosen cause and teh percentage that goes on administration and salaries. But real individual charity and community spirit increases. Everybody knows that teh people who give most money to beggars in the street are the poor themselves, not teh well-heeled, fancy clothed people who walk by without a concern. In fact we have even had some of our state sponsored charities telling us not to give beggars money in case they spend it on alcohol etc. But the poor don't listen to these messages, they give money anyway. The charity of neighbours looking after each other and helping each other increases. Communities collect food and distribute it. That is what is happening in Greece, while teh government cuts medicines and cuts pensions, it is the real people who unite to help each other out. Every country is teh same in a crisis. As things get tougher community spirit rises and black marketeers and loansharks who profit from the people's misery are universally scorned as the anger and community spirit of the public increases.

'bullshit, crime rises and people look after their own interests'
Maybe thats what you do, maybe you look after your own interests, but the majority don't.

If the evacuation of children from London and other cities to escape the Blitz to go to the safety of the country wasn't the height of community, what was it?
it wasn't community - it was mandatory evacuation.

'bullshit'

It may be bullshit to you, but it is not to millions of good people. The Jubilee was a demonstration of community spirit.

they may be good people indeed i agree, the jubilee was a demonstration of nationality and a celebration not community spirit - you are mixing things up

As conditions get tougher, people pool together. People lend more to charities and help their neighbours. Just like in Greece, where food banks are set up and people help those in the greatest need and landlords waive rents for months on end, in the hope that people can recover.

what people? this isn't greece. i think you'll find that charities get a financial hit along with the rest of us - their money doesn't go up - especially in this financial climate when cuts in govt funding mean that many charities are not able to operate AT ALL. and with localism and 'super charities' the smaller communities are actually getting squeezed

Community spirit never dies and it gets stronger the worse things get and the worse the state of the nation becomes. What can't destroy us, unites us. In adversity we find strength and in catastrophe we find community.

bullshit, crime rises and people look after their own interests - thatcherism in action

OK, I'll bite. That was my post re wealth=less community. I stand by it, despite living in the sort of lovely place you're describing myself. I didn't actually relate it directly to class, just to money, which IMO is not quite the same thing.

What is probably true is that for a community to work, there needs to be enough spare resource for people to give to others, though that could be time, it doesn't have to be money or goods. But the sort of thing I was thinking of was swaps of spare food during seasonal gluts, which of course still happens, but IMO not on the scale it used to because there is far more access to mechanical means of food storage.

Quite flatpack. Because of course everyone is just clamouring to live on deprived estates full of the happy very poor with their community spirit robbing and anti scocial behviour and drug taking. [eh]