'Doing the right thing'

Interesting wee exercise, look at the demographics (educational levels, employment history) of Labour v Tory MPs over the last 40 years.

Big difference now, compared to back then.

They are ALL entitled, self serving bastards. Hardly any of them under 40 have ever had proper, real jobs obtained on their own merits. Not feckin Parliamentary or party reserach shit. Even the Labour ones. Virtually no difference compared to their Oxbridge peers.

They need to ask themselves: "Do I represent the people I grew up with? Do I live with them, socialise with them or identify with their interests? "

And ALL MPs should ask themselves these questions:

Do I send my children to state schools, do we use the National Health Service, do my family make regular use of public parks, transport, libraries and Post Offices? If I, or any of my family, should ever be forced to make use of public resources, would I be happy for us of my disabled relative to be dependent upon the current benefits system?

Of course they wouldn't. They would piss themselves laughing until they die.

Sorry - should be 'back to the seventies' trades union movement.

ttosca "comprised of a bunch of privileged sociopaths with anachronistic ideas about their right to rule."

Careful, that could easily apply to the modern 'PPE's from Oxbridge' Labour party and their buddys in the trades union movement.

Representative of the working man, my arse!

I don't call other people scum because of how they vote. I call them scum when they're part of a political party or support a political party who are comprised of a bunch of privileged sociopaths with anachronistic ideas about their right to rule.

People like you make me even prouder to be a Tory, ttosca. And even more delighted that people who can call others scum because of how they vote are going to have just that little bit less tax off me!

Who cares?

Toryscum.

Is the phrase Toryscum allowed ot stand, Sandy?

... and the award for the most amount of wandering off topic goes to...

This one!

Thank you Sandy

'nice'guy-

Oh yes, and Tony Blair, no doubt, told himself that he was 'doing the right thing' when he launched his illegal and immoral war against Iraq, resulting in the deaths of up to 100,000 men, women, and children.

Likewise, Tories and their apologists might make all sorts of excuses for their attack on their poor, but the reality is these policies are killing people and destroying lives.

I don't know about bankers, but that comment usually comes from someone aggreived that their family has what is, on the face of it, a very good income but that it's all spoken for and they don't have a lavish lifestyle. Losing £50/month in tax credits or £80/month in CB, they claim, is a disaster. The numbers may be bigger but they have become as dependent on their top-ups as someone on minimum wage. The irony of 'doing the right thing'

' I've certainly seen '£50,000 doesn't go very far' or similar statement once on these boards on many occasions.'

There are also bankers on Mumsnet.

"most likely the people on middle-incomes who are receiving top-ups are not likely to be 'dependent' on them in the same way that someone who works for the minimum wage (or less). "

Judging by the level of complaint when tax credits (and CB in future) were withdrawn from middle-income earners that it would seriously affect their lifestyles I don't think that's true. I've certainly seen '£50,000 doesn't go very far' or similar statement once on these boards on many occasions. Expenditure has expanded to fit the money available.

The concept of what is 'right', 'fair' and 'affordable' are all relative.

It all depends on your personal beliefs. It's entirely possible the government do honestly believe they are doing the right thing. It doesn't necessarily follow that everyone needs to agree.

My five year old things it is not right or fair that he is not allowed another breakfast this morning. I think it is fair because he's not finished the massive bowl of cereal he wanted. He's utterly convinced i'm horrible and uncaring. I'm sure his friends would both understand and agree. Whilst I would probably find many parents side with me.

C'est la vie.

the WelfareState is much more than a safety net for the desperate, it's a vital part of social cohesion and solidarity. The NHS is used by everyone, not just the poor. Not all of us believe the State to be an agency of restriction of personal freedom. Actually, if you're poor, disabled, etc State intervention gives you the only freedom you'll ever have.

There is an argument to be made that people on middle incomes should receive state benefits

Sorry, that should be "Shouldn't receive state benefits"...

Cogito-

I may have mentioned welfare dependency buecause I think nothing is more soul-destroying.

Really? Nothing is more soul-destroying for whom, them or you?

I think attacking welfare and putting people's lives and safety at risk under the guise of eliminating an alleged 'culture of dependency' when clearly only a minority of welfare recipients abuse the system, is far worse.

How would you prefer your soul to be destroyed?

Furthermore, most likely the people on middle-incomes who are receiving top-ups are not likely to be 'dependent' on them in the same way that someone who works for the minimum wage (or less).

There is an argument to be made that people on middle incomes should receive state benefits, but then I don't hear you arguing that the money saved should go towards helping the poorest, either.

Perhaps you 'compassion' for the soul-destroying nature of welfare dependency is really just a facade that masks your contempt for the poor. If you your concern were really born out of compassion, you would not defend a solution to an alleged problem which is worse than the problem itself.

Here is a website called 'Calums List':

calumslist.org/

The principle object of this site is to provide as definitive a list as possible to evidence the appalling carnage that the past, and current fatally flawed welfare reform is causing for real families and the friends of the bereaved.

"Aren't you one of the people constantly complaining about 'welfare dependency' and a 'culture of entitlement'? "

I may have mentioned welfare dependency buecause I think nothing is more soul-destroying. I don't think the words 'culture of entitlement' have ever left my keyboard.

How about providing some figures?.... Being the copy/paste King/Queen I'm sure you can find them. :) But considering that the median household income is about £25k, tax credits were available up to £55k and only 10% of households have incomes above that level, I think it's safe to say that quite a lot of families fell into that bracket.

ttossa... at what point have I mentioned JSA, 'taking the piss' or fraud? Hurl your shit by all means, but read what I write rather than just doing your usual lazy copy/paste job and then going off at a tangent

Oh, I'm sorry. Aren't you one of the people constantly complaining about 'welfare dependency' and a 'culture of entitlement'? JSA is also relevant in that context.

I mention tax credits because, despite being designed to alleviate poverty (the discussion is about politicians that claim to 'do the right thing'), they were allocated (legitimately) to households with incomes as high as £55,000. A household with that kind of income can have a good standard of living without borrowing excessively and the state-funded top-ups came to be relied upon and were problematic when they were withdrawn

Tax credits were offered because work often doesn't pay. The fact is that employers don't pay their workers enough at the lower end of the pay scale, and people can't afford to live and bring up a family even when working full time. In effect, the state (i.e. the public) is subsidising corporate wages so people can survive on full time employment.

If you think this shouldn't happen or shouldn't be necessary, then I agree. Why don't you fight for a living wage, then?

Secondly, how about providing some figures for the number and percentage of people who claim tax credits who earn above the median income?

I agree that those who can afford to live without tax credits should do so. So how big is this problem? And what shall we do with the money saved if we were to stop tax credits to middle-class families? Raise the income tax threshold perhaps?

flatpack-

The formatting of all my comments is absolutely fine. The only one which is screwed up is the one which contains the figures for spending as percentage of GDP. You are cowardly if you're trying to hide behind poor formatting.

Government spending doubled under labour. The "as a % of GDP%" figure is the one wheeled out by leftists who want to pretend that the biggest waste of taxpayers' money since the 1945 Labour government didn't really happen. It did. And what's worse, 12% of spending was off the balance sheet in the form of PFI.

The % of GDP figure is wheeled out by leftists because it is the figure which is relevant. If you don't use that figure and used absolute spending, then you're not comparing like with like. You might as well compare spending of the UK govt. in the 1920s with now, or between the UK govt. and the govt. of Angola.

Secondly, you didn't provide any figures or evidence to back up that govt. spending doubled - in absolute terms - under Labour. Please do so.

Thirdly, I will not apologise for public spending. Unlike you, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. Public spending is only bad when it's unaffordable. Before the financial crisis, New Labour did indeed overspend, but the amount was not unprecedented or historically anomalous. The deficit was at 3% before the crisis.

biggest waste of taxpayers' money since the 1945 Labour government didn't really happen

Haha! Wait - you mean the Atlee govt. and the creation of the welfare state? The creation of the NHS? These things are a waste of tax payers money?

Well, sorry if I don't take you very seriously here on in.

"The vast, overwhelming majority of people who claim JSA or benefit are not committing fraud, and are not taking the piss"

ttossa... at what point have I mentioned JSA, 'taking the piss' or fraud? Hurl your shit by all means, but read what I write rather than just doing your usual lazy copy/paste job and then going off at a tangent

I mention tax credits because, despite being designed to alleviate poverty (the discussion is about politicians that claim to 'do the right thing'), they were allocated (legitimately) to households with incomes as high as £55,000. A household with that kind of income can have a good standard of living without borrowing excessively and the state-funded top-ups came to be relied upon and were problematic when they were withdrawn