George Osborne is stupid or naive or a liar. Or all of the above.

Well at least he's doing something about it. Which is more than Labour did during their long tenure at No. 10.

I think Dave and Osborne are thick, they have had their day, the wage master rules supreme and the antagonism between the landed and the capitalist is still apparent esp with Osborne. The guys a prat, if it wasn't for a fate of birth no one would allow him to manage a lottery syndicate let alone the economy.

He does grasp it, I think, minimasmouse. I don't buy it that he's a thicko. None of them are thickos. The scenario you describe is what they want. It's the only conclusion, because nothing else makes any sense.

Its a bit nihilistic really, if the capitalist class continue impoverishing workers then surely no one will either work for them or pay for the goods produced.

I wonder how they'd get the oil to fuel their helicopters.

On R4 this morning it was being discussed that many rich tax dodgers are now claiming that tax avoidance helps charities. They can give to charity to avoid some income tax. Surely though if we continue down this course, we now have the poor funding charity through taxation and the rich avoiding taxation with the charity sector expected to take up the work of the state but not having the same level of accountability. It's already been said that charities often set their agenda according to the whims of rich benefactors. In short if charities are unaccountable to the state, they are unaccountable to us but answerable to corporations and rich individuals.

This Government with its idea of shrinking state provision and replacing it with social enterprise seems not to grasp the basic principle that in time the tax burden on the worker will rise, standards will fall and whilst investors take their divs and also give charitable donations, they will increasingly take over the business of the state via the back door.

As for Osborne, I'm actually inclined to think he is naive and way out of his depth. It's a cabinet full of pals, not chosen according to ability.

Lots of people pay more tax than they have to. I pay more tax than I have to. I could pay a tax adviser to set up all sorts of complicated schemes for me, enabling him to make a lovely big profit out of me (but it is encouraging private enterprise, isn't it?...), me to save a small amount of money and for the tax man to lose out altogether. Wahay. What a great idea. And then I could bemoan the state of the roads, the hospitals, the schools, and law enforcement and claim it's because my hard earned tax money isn't spent properly, as though I've actually provided a particularly big percentage of my cash in tax. And the money I don't spend in tax I can use to pay for private healthcare and private education, and if I'm rich enough, I can get myself a helicopter and private jet, and private security firm to guard my properties and my own personal island elsewhere, and then I don't even need to bother about the state of the roads or even the state of law enforcement. I will at some point bemoan the lack of good employees for my company, though, and wonder why the state is incapable of educating anyone properly.

Josephine, the issue is some people aren't paying as much tax as they should - and that means other people have to pay more. This is particularly irksome when it's the extremely rich paying 10% or less and ordinary or low-paid people shelling out a much bigger proportion of their income.

You might think it's big and clever to avoid tax, but all that means is dumping the bill on someone else. Probably someone who earns less and doesn't have the funds to pay for specialist tax advice.

Definitely neither - he is smart enough to pretend to be both

Nobody pays more tax than they have to, surely? I don't know why George is lying about this but he was probably damned whatever he said. Tax avoidance will be around for as long as there is tax. People will always think that they can spend the money they have earnt a lot more wisely than the government can.

Didn't know much about how it was done?! I should imagine his personal tax/financial advisers have informed him fully on exactly how to minimise his own tax bill in the past. He would merely have chosen how aggressive he could afford to be in his tax avoidance schemes if he wanted to get on in politics. If he was surprised by anything, it was probably how many merely comfortably off middle class people were trying to join the bandwagon that was intended only to be utilised by a few of his friends and party donors... and those little people, of course, will be the only people chucked off the bandwagon by any reforms.

I suspect that he knows exactly how it is done, given that he's the heir to a wallpaper empire and went to an elite public school and has surrounded himself with other multi-millionaires. If he doesn't know how it's done, he's really Not Been Paying Attention.

UK shocked that George Osborne expects them to believe he?s shocked at millionaire tax avoiders

The entire population of the UK have expressed their total shock that Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne has expressed his shock that some of the UK?s richest people have organised their finances so that they pay virtually no income tax.

Mr Osborne revealed he had seen ?anonymised copies? of tax returns which showed him that some of the highest earners are completely taking the piss.

He did not outline any new proposals, but insisted he was so crippled with shock at the revelations that he would have a jolly good think about taking some action.

?After finding out that some high earners pay an income tax averaging at just 10%, I had to have a lie down,? he told the Daily Telegraph.

?Seriously, I thought I was going to faint.?

?I was even more shocked to discover that I am the only person in the UK who didn?t know that this was going on.?

?Me, the chancellor!?
High earners

He said the returns he had seen had shown him the 20 biggest tax avoiders had legally reduced their income tax bills by a total of £145m in a year.

?I can?t reveal the details of the individuals involved, but as I read through it I was saying to myself ?I know him, had dinner with her last Tuesday, I was best man at his wedding, I?m related to him,? he revealed.

?How could I have not known about this??

?People must think I?m either a liar or incredibly stupid!?

Voters have denied that they think Mr Osborne is either of those things.

?He?s both,? they confirmed.

newsthump.com/2012/04/10/uk-shocked-that-george-osborne-expects-them-to-believe-hes-shocked-at-millionaire-tax-avoiders/

Rubbish, it's common knowledge.

In fact he's worse than a liar, he's a c*ks*ker. How dare he think we are that stupid!!!

I suspect that he did not know much about how it was done, but was concerned enough to ask and then to publish what was found. Has any Chancellor actually done similar in the recent past? Because I bet these aren't new things only begun since the election.

What matters now is what he does with this information, now that he has evidence rather than generalised supposition.

He's lying. It's PR!

You're welcome.

Thanks for answering my question, Cogito.

Why is George Osborne surprised about tax avoidance? I warned of its scale in 2008

As I am on a train from Paris right now I?m only just catching up with this morning?s news about HMRC showing George Osbone 20 anonymised tax returns revealing that just 20 people in the UK have avoided £145 million of tax between them.

The story should not be news. I warned in 2008 that the scale of tax avoidance was far higher than HMRC calculated. This was in my report ?The Missing Billions? published by the TUC that year, in which I said there was at least £13 billion of personal ta avoidance in the UK and a further £8 billion of excess reliefs granted to very wealthy people. www.tuc.org.uk/touchstone/missingbillions/1missingbillions.pdf (apologies ? links are harder on the iPad).

I have always maintained, hard that such estimates are, this extrapolation of HMRC?s own data (much of it hardly updated since then) was a reasonable guide to what was really happening in the UK economy. HMRC always said otherwise ? vociferously, and rather personally, taking at face value the absurd observations of the libertarian right and, to some degree, the Oxford Centre for Business Taxation on such issues. This is reflected in their last estimate of tax avoidance. In that report, published last September, they said total tax avoidance by individuals of income tax, national insurance and capital gains tax combined was just £1.5 billion. www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/mtg-2011.pdf Now we can really see how ludicrous that estimate always was. HMRC knew all along that 20 people accounted for almost 10% of that sum.

I have long maintained ministers have not told the truth on this issue, and that HMRC have quite deliberately misinformed on this issue, both to ministers and the public. Now it is very clear that I was right about that. I don?t expect, and know I won?t get an apology. But what I do expect is action to tackle this issue at long last, and much greater honesty in future, plus a willingness on the part of HMRC to dismiss the very obvious and ludicrous claims of the economic far right which they have been far too willing to embrace.

If all Orsborne has done is issue an interview to support his cap on tax reliefs at £50,000 that?s not enough. That ignores altogether abuse via capital taxation. It also ignores the massive abuse possible via companies. Real change is needed. Having let the cat out of the bag that tax avoidance really is much higher than official estimates Osborne has to do three things.

The first is re-estimate the issue. I?d suggest that involves talking to the very few people who have been right about it to date, including me.

Second, definitions of abuse have to very clearly be redefined. The mantra, too readily accepted by HMRC ?that it?s legal so it?s acceptable? has to be confined to the bin.

Third, we have to have comprehensive action to tackle this abuse. Now. Nothing less will do.

Will he do those three things? Let?s wait and see. But don?t hold your breath.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2012/04/10/why-is-george-osborne-surprised-about-tax-avoidance-i-warned-of-its-scale-in-2008/

He is the epitome of all that is wrong with the Coalition Govt.

I don't regard myself as stupid and keep up with financial matters generally. I know,for example,that income from Capital Gains is taxed at 28% whereas PAYE income is 40% or 45% etc I know about things like claiming non-dom status and using tax havens. Nevertheless I was genuinely surprised that some can pay as low as 10% on a UK tax return. I'd love to know how that breaks down, where the money goes, what allowances are being claimed etc. The stamp-duty loophole was closed after the budget. It can't be that easy to close others or presumably it would already have been done.

"Rich people avoid paying tax shock"

No shock to anyone, FFS

I'm going with liar, if he is that stupid or naive Dave would not have chosen him as Chancellor.

I was certainly shocked when I read that headline. How stupid does he think people are?

Of course he's not shocked, surprised, upset, angry or any of these things. Practically every other adult in the UK knows full well that many people, especially the very well-off, avoid tax, so how could this fact possibly have passed the Chancellor by?

Oh, that's right. It couldn't.

In what country do people pay more tax than they have to?

Tax avoidance will exist as long as there is tax.