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Politics

French presidential electio

59 replies

longfingernails · 05/04/2012 23:52

Can they both lose please?

Sarkozy is a disgrace to the conservative cause. We had such high hopes when he came in.

Hollande would be fantastic for Britain in the short-term because of the exodus of talented people towards our shores his policies would cause. But medium-term his socialist policies would be bad for Europe (Sarkozy's socialist policies are already bad enough).

Neither candidate has a plan for France to halt her unfortunate decline.

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ReactionaryFish · 22/04/2012 21:47

Don't bother, claig; she's a fanatic. Either that or pissed.

claig · 22/04/2012 21:46

Fascist parties also share a communitarianism with the left, a valuation of society and community above the individual freedom prized by conservatives. Conservatives prefer a small state, whereas teh left and extreme right prefer a big state with more authoritarian policies.

ReactionaryFish · 22/04/2012 21:44

"Daily heil?" Nazi jibes, is it? Nice.
you're losing the plot, love. I've reported your post; let's hope MNHQ save you some of the embarrassment you've cause yourself.

claig · 22/04/2012 21:39

But Dr. Lawrence Britt (whoever he is) seems to have conveniently missed out nationalisation of parts of industry, welfare and protectionism, which are often policies of the left.

ttosca · 22/04/2012 21:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ReactionaryFish · 22/04/2012 21:38

I'll save you the bother of reading ttosca's last post.
left-wing = everyone I think is nice and whom I agree with.
right-wing = everyone I think is horrid.

No need to thank me.

ttosca · 22/04/2012 21:35

lnf-

The BNP are economically left-wing. In fact they are generally an authoritarian left-wing party.

No, they're an authoritarian right-wing party.

Here is some short analysis which says it far more cogently

It's not cogent at all.

There are at least two axes on the political spectrum: left-right, libertarian-authoritarian.

Fascism is right-wing and authoritarian.

You are making another mistake with logic to think that just because fascists want to control the economy, then fascists are left-wing. This is wrong for at least the following reasons:

a) There are many forms of left-wing ideology, from Stalinism (extreme authoritarian) to Anarchism (extreme libertarianism).

b) Most of the ideas of fascism are closer to the concerns and ideas of the right. Those on the right who are extreme authoritarian are fascists:

------

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

  1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
  1. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
  1. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
  1. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
  1. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
  1. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
  1. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
  1. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
  1. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
  1. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

  2. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

  3. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

  4. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

  5. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

ReactionaryFish · 22/04/2012 21:27

Insofar as the BNP has an economic policy it seems to be a bizzarre mix of old Labour (nationalisation etc) and pre-1850 Tory (massive protectionism). But for such as ttosca the racial element trumps all. Racism = right wing and that's all there is to it. it is pointless trying to educate such people, their brains are too addled by excessive Guardian consumption.

claig · 22/04/2012 21:25

Exactly. I am watching France 24. They have the guests from the 2% greens on, small socialist parties etc., but no guests from the 18.5% Front National. The pundits think the public are stupid and will follow any old spin and opinion polling.

longfingernails · 22/04/2012 21:21

Yes - it is reminiscent of the way the BBC continually give publicity to the Greens and essentially ignore UKIP.

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claig · 22/04/2012 21:15

'I am puzzled as to why Jean-Luc Melenchon did so much worse than expected'

I think the pollsters and media boosted him up. The public never fell for the act.

longfingernails · 22/04/2012 21:09

Anyway - back to France - I am puzzled as to why Jean-Luc Melenchon did so much worse than expected. He barely beat Bayrou.

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longfingernails · 22/04/2012 21:05

Here is some short analysis which says it far more cogently

iaindale.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/why-bnp-is-left-wing-and-fascist.html

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longfingernails · 22/04/2012 21:04

The BNP are economically left-wing. In fact they are generally an authoritarian left-wing party.

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ttosca · 22/04/2012 20:55

First of all, Labour isn't 'left-wing'. It hasn't been for decades.

The reason the BNP will perform better in Labour areas than Conversative, is because Labour votes are traditionally - surprise surprise - concerned with labour and labour conditions.

The BNP - and fascism generally - provide a convenient scapegoat for high unemployment and low wages.

Since Labour voters are more likely to be working class, rather than have comfortable middle-class lifestyles or be 'independently wealthy', it is not surprising that more ex-Labour voters will vote BNP than Conservative voters when there is high unemployment and people are afraid of jobs, job losses, and working conditions.

To claim that this means that the BNP is 'left wing' is a sort of fantastical and twisted Alice in Wonderland logic.

claig · 22/04/2012 20:52

But we are mnot talking about the BNP. We are discussing the Front National. Do you really think that the approx. 20% who voted for Le Pen are working class?

ttosca · 22/04/2012 20:50

It is a fact that the BNP do well in ex-Labour heartlands - like Barking and Dagenham.

So, from this you conclude that fascism is left wing?

longfingernails · 22/04/2012 20:49

Barking & Dagenham are back in Labour hands now - but for a while I think it had about a dozen BNP councillors.

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longfingernails · 22/04/2012 20:49

It is a fact that the BNP do well in ex-Labour heartlands - like Barking and Dagenham.

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ttosca · 22/04/2012 20:45

Many Le Pen voters are left-wing - for the same reason that the BNP only really gets strong results in ex-Labour heartlands.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. You think fascism is a left-wing disease?

ThePathanKhansWitch · 22/04/2012 20:10

Low on political comedy Hmm, let me introduce you to Dwiddle dee and Dwiddle dum(ber) aka Dave and George.

claig · 22/04/2012 20:04

I think you are wrong. If they were left, they would vote for the left in order to stop Sarkozy. But Sarkozy will win, I think.

longfingernails · 22/04/2012 20:00

Many Le Pen voters are left-wing - for the same reason that the BNP only really gets strong results in ex-Labour heartlands.

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claig · 22/04/2012 19:57

I am also not surprised by the poorer than expected showing of the far left. I think the French public saw through the act and the media polls.

claig · 22/04/2012 19:53

I am surprised that the greens got as much as 2%.