French presidential electio

LFN - the point is that Hollande is not a one-off. Whether you like it or not, it corresponds with a move against austerity by voters across Europe - including the UK, though that seems to have escaped your notice.

France is not the only country where voters have voted overwhelmingly left-wing. Hooe this gives courage to the UK left that far from socialism being a vote-loser, it is currently a vote-winner across Europe.

There aren't many people I dislike, but Sarkozy is one them.

According to sources outside France, Hollande is in the lead with 53%.

That's fine, it chimes with what I think,
I don't believe we have a democratic process just through the vote and I think a lot of other people agree which is why so few people turn out and vote. Many though let their voice be heard through various pressure groups and of course not all of us vote because their isn't a party that we would vote for. I also think consumers are starting to take their concerns directly to the corporations with concerns like corporate watch and recent boycotts. In fact there is now evidence to suggest that direct action works, which makes it all the more necessary that politicians take note.

I'm sure Mini can answer for herself Ttosca.

That said, your post is pretty articulate about what you think is wrong. Light on what your alternative would be though.

It's easy to be an armchair critic, slagging off decisions made by others. Not so easy to make decisions when you are johnny on the spot and not living in a hypothetical world.

I would like true democracy from the bottom up and a political and economic system that is responsive to the needs & goals of its people.

Can you define what you see as a true democracy? I mean we all get to vote. My vote is as equal as yours and the same as Mr Cameron's himself. Isn't that a very good indicator of democracy?

No. Being able to vote once every four years for tweedle-dum or tweedle-dee with virtually indistinguishable platforms, where parties feel no obligation to implement their manifesto pledges, and indeed, do the very opposite, and where they feel free to break international law is not a democracy.

We don't live in a democracy, we live in a plutocracy. Philip Green, tax avoider extraordinaire advised the government on how to implement austerity cuts. 50% of funding for the Conservative party comes from the City of London, while the majority of Government members are millionaires with connections to the wealthy elite and major corporations. There is an obvious conflict of interest there.

Nor is government representative when the vast overwhelming majority are white, upper-middle class, Oxbridge education, wealthy males.

I've said all of this before. You may find this situation satisfactory, but not everybody has such a debased notion of democracy.

Yeah, it's quite disturbing, but there are lots this time unfortunately.

I think ReadctionaryFish summed it up well:

^left-wing = everyone I think is nice and whom I agree with.
right-wing = everyone I think is horrid.^

Often people just use the terms "conservative" or "right wing" as a box in which to toss anything bad or that they disagree with.

Some years ago, Boris Yeltsin was involved in a stand-off with some political opponents and confront them.

These opponents were hard-line communists. But in its reports the BBC did not refer to them as such, but as "hard-line conservatives".

Extremist sharia-supporting muslime clerics are often referred to in this way too, even though there's not much about modern civilisation that they would want to conserve.

The BNP is in favour of nationalisation, trade protectionism, workers cooperatives, does best in traditional labour voting areas and has in the past marketed itself as "the Labour Party your grandfathers voted for". Nasty yes, but right wing??

Of course you could say that being racist is by definition right wing but then you'd have to call Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels right wing. Engels thought that as the communist utopia developed, some races would just have to disappear as they would not be capable of suitable advancement. Into this category he placed Serbs and Scottish Highlanders.

You could say that extreme authoritarianism is by definition right wing but then you would mave to call arch-Fabian socialist George Bernard Shaw right wing. He thought economically unproductive adults should be gassed.

I would like true democracy from the bottom up and a political and economic system that is responsive to the needs & goals of its people.

Can you define what you see as a true democracy? I mean we all get to vote. My vote is as equal as yours and the same as Mr Cameron's himself. Isn't that a very good indicator of democracy?

I don't want a big state!!! capitalism creates a need for a big authoritarian state and the welfare state to mop up it's creation of inequality. I would like true democracy from the bottom up and a political and economic system that is responsive to the needs & goals of its people.

Hang on a minute; haven't you just been pillorying me on another thread for suggesting we have a smaller government? The big state is the cause of all the problems in the first place.

Just reading MR pants one would assume that we are returning to 1920's, a war between fascism and communism. The two end of the same turd (I concur) although he seems not to realise that the middle ground is like shifting sands and has become startlingly like fascism.

The war on terror, the capitalist class making money out of the war machine, the selling of military hardware, gauntanamo bay, the detention of terrorists without trial, the torture of suspects.......The uk Government wanting out of EU and to close it's boarders, the political class no longer representing the electorate instead pandering to the needs of corporations, the socialisation of risks and the privatisation of capital......The increasing state supervision and security in all walks of life like the fact that the UK has 1 camera to every 4 citizens, the state wants to monitor your emails and telephone conversations because of the perceived threat of Islamic terrorists.............UK politics is rife with lobbying, bribes through the party donar system, politicians in bed with the press, Prime ministers who will tell murdoch anything he wants just as long as he sells their brand for them, the fact that time and again good academic research is dismissed whilst research paid for by corporations is churned out and used to feed children contaminated beef.......

All the while we the workers continue to sell our wage labour. The fact that capital creates the social conditions in which the large state is needed seems to allude those on the right. We pay for the welfare system that private capital will use to to profit and both save and enslave it's most valued resource, people.

1. The International, Keep the Red Flag Flying, the Red Banner etc.

2. The Gulags, the Stasi.

3. Trotsky, the Kulaks.

4. The Red Army.

5. ?Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated.? So there should be dozens of prominent women from the Warsaw Pact nations? Care to name one?

6. Pravda

7. KGB, Stasi?

8. Corporate power is subsumed by the state.

9. Solidarity, Lech Walensa etc?

10. Solzhenitsyn

11. Ceausescu?s, Kim?s etc.

12. Why bother with a vote if it?s only going to be rigged anyway?

Face it; Fascism and Communism are opposite ends of the same turd. The turd itself is socialism.

This morning, as I walk down the road, every fourth person I cross will have voted FN, I can't even begin to explain how crap that makes me feel. I love this country but now feel uncomfortable here.

I actually agree that many people who voted FN are left-winged; if you look at Le Pen's proposals, some were really good ideas and I just hope that Hollande has the sense to pick up on these and pledge to support them too because otherwise Sarkozy is in with a real chance of getting her voters.

As for Melanchon not doing as well as expected, I do think he was popular, but many people were worried of a repeat of 2002 and preferred to vote Hollande just in case.

Ttosca is correct you can not measure ideology on a simple left right axis. I tried in vain to make the same point a few weeks ago, I sometimes think the prevailing left-right language misleads people.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum Eysencks Political spectrum model is quite useful and easy to understand and the Nolan chart is also worth consideration.

One of the best models for understanding political differences and similarities is the Status-quo revolutionary axis.

Seems as though Holland is 2% in the lead but I wonder noe what will happen because Le pen polled 18%

Claig-

Fascist parties also share a communitarianism with the left, a valuation of society and community above the individual freedom prized by conservatives. Conservatives prefer a small state, whereas teh left and extreme right prefer a big state with more authoritarian policies.

No, the authoritarian left and authoritarian right prefer a big state. You can't measure ideology on one axis. You need at least two. It's not a matter of 'extremes', it's a matter of authoritarianism vs libertarianism with regards to small or big state.

ReactionaryFish-

"Daily heil?" Nazi jibes, is it? Nice.

Erm.. yes, the Dail Mail actually did support the Nazis in the 1930s. Now it's supporting the Fascists again.

you're losing the plot, love. I've reported your post; let's hope MNHQ save you some of the embarrassment you've cause yourself.

Oh well done you! I'm sorry to hear that you're so fragile that you felt the need to report my offensive post to get it removed so it can no longer do you any harm.

mini-

The left doesn't always prefer a large state, google: Libertarian socilaism, anarchic socialism, anarchic syndicalism, all left small state philosophies.

Yes, I tried to explain this to no avail.

I find myself hoping Hollande will win.

Firstly because he has said he'd pull France out of the fiscal compact and after Sarkozy's treatment of us, that would just be the icing on the cake.

Secondly because Sarkozy always looks like a smug git. He's got that sort of chin you could just give a left hook to.

That said, I disagree with most of his policies. Thank goodness I don't live & vote in France. It's like being stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

The left doesn't always prefer a large state, google: Libertarian socilaism, anarchic socialism, anarchic syndicalism, all left small state philosophies.

What happened up thread?