'The poor deserve to die; the rich deserve unmediated power.' What do you think?

I think Rand's philosophy is impractical and also horrible if it ever came to pass. It is abstract reasoning that does not square with reality.

I think she believes in an individualism that is impossible to achieve. The individual's rights are not paramount because they might interfere with the rights of another individual. That is why we have governments that govern and laws that we have to abide by. Society takes priority over the individual in some cases, and the law determines the boundaries of freedom.

Her system would in my opinion lead to a breakdown of society and law and an inevitable rule by a dictatorship of the powerful who would impose their will on the people.

and no longer swallow any old garbage. The vote was won, the deal was done, the electorate turned out as one and rejoiced at the return of the sun.

I cannot believe that this could even be discussed in a civilised society...

I don't recognise Monbiots précis of Rand; in fact, I think he's done a hatchet job on her. Loosely interpreted, Rand's ideas are based around self reliance, minimal government intervention and minimal regulations. This concept extends across the board into private lives, markets, foreign policy, welfare etc.

The two major tenets Rand advocates can be distilled into property rights (what is mine is mine, it isn't yours to confiscate from me and it sure as hell doesn't belong to the state) and the concept of 'the initiation of force' (best explained as 'if you leave me alone and unhindered, I'll leave you alone).

In reality, Rands philosophy does lend itself to letting 'the devil take the hindmost', but with sufficient checks in place (welfare spending for the disabled for instance) it could be accommodated into the western political mainstream.

Incidentally, under Rands system, the banks wouldn't have been bailed out with public money and the unholy closeness between government and big business wouldn't exist.

I would love to talk Libertarianism all night but sadly, real life calls. I'll try and drop in later.

'What the hell are you on? Why are you so incoherent?'

said the fool to the sage. Truly things never change throughout every age. Get back in thy cage and temper thy rage, listen to Cameron and get on the right page, no longer vote for any old cabbage.

'Our elections are meaningless.'

The people who voted New Labour out didn't think so.

The choice is between either being screwed, or being screwed hard. Ultimately, the problems with the political and economic system are systemic. Replacing one neo-liberal party with another one will not fix anything.

New Labour continued the neo-liberal, privitisingm, deregulating agenda of Thatcher and the Tory years. Now the Tories are back in power, they are continuing New Labour's work.

That's why wages for the vast majority of people have stagnated for decades, while the rich have become richer, and the richest have become filthy rich.

'Government is run for and by the rich. We have virtually no say in the way our society is run.'

The people had their say and voted New Labour out. Now New Labour have virtually no say in the way our society is run and the damage that they did is being undone.

Yeah, I can see. It's great how there are so many more homeless people now, how charities are being shut due to lack of funding, the NHS is being privatised, disabled people and cancer patients are being forced to work, the rich are getting tax breaks, legal aid is being cut, denying people basic justice... and so on, and so forth. The Tories are doing wonders for the average person...

Who says the people never won? Only a son of a gun who believes the spin that was spun.

What the hell are you on? Why are you so incoherent?

Because it is sometimes necessary to cut and paste your quotes.

Yes, you said that one already. I'm sure you're very proud of it, but once is really enough.

'Our elections are meaningless.'

The people who voted New Labour out didn't think so.

'Government is run for and by the rich. We have virtually no say in the way our society is run.'

The people had their say and voted New Labour out. Now New Labour have virtually no say in the way our society is run and the damage that they did is being undone. Who says the people never won? Only a son of a gun who believes the spin that was spun.

'Why do you keep spouting confused and incoherent ideology when you don't know what you're talking about?'

Because it is sometimes necessary to cut and paste your quotes.

We are all nice to people. It was teh communist who created teh gulags, we didn't.

It was teh Capitalists who waged war throughout the 20th Century, killing millions of people, for oil and resources. It was teh Capitalists who speculated on food prices, making food unaffordable. It was teh Capitalists who prevent the creation of generic drugs which are patented, thus causing tens of thousands of unecessary deaths every year from diseases which are treatable. I could go on and on...^

We allow people to have freedom, we are nice.

No, we really don't. Ask the Greeks what sort of freedoms they have. They're not even allowed to vote in another government who won't implement austerity measures.

We, in the west, have the personal freedom to drink, fuck, do drugs, consume shit, and talk about things, so long as we don't take any action which attempts to control our own destiny or that of society. Our elections are meaningless. Protest is only legal if symbolic, and easily ignored. Government is run for and by the rich. We have virtually no say in the way our society is run.

Not at all. Capitalism is not an elitist socialist system where the planners can do what they like with no opposition or competition. In a free enterprise capitalist system, there is always competition which ensures that there is price competition and no one can charge whatever they like without regard to the fair value of the market, or they will go out of business.

This is wrong. Why do you keep spouting confused and incoherent ideology when you don't know what you're talking about?

Capitalism, left to its own devices, will tend towards monopolies and cartels. It is a tendency within the system itself to do this, as competitors try to drive each other out of business, and then make it harder to new competitors to survive and compete.

That's why we have laws against monopolies, price fixing, and cartels.

Your rosy idea of Capitalism is so naive it's almost laughable.

David Cameron was not responsible for 'light-touch regulation' of the bankers. Osborne is trying to institute effective regulation.

No, he's absolutely not doing this. Could you provide some evidence that Osborne is trying to institute effective regulations?

In fact, the business lobby, via the CBI, is trying to get Osborne to get the Coalition to do the exact opposite of what is required. It is lobbying for 'removal of red tape' to 'help create a more business friendly environment'.

There is absolutely no chance in hell that the Tories will regulate, rather than deregulate businesses - especially the banks. The City of London pays 50% of Tory donations.

We are more prosperious than the Sovet Socialist Republics were because we believe in freedom. the liberalism of neloliberalism and free enterprise. We don't believe that all our private efforts and businesses should be appropriated by an elite who pretend that they know what is best for us.

We need regulation to prevent anyone "ripping us off". Most businesses do not rip us off. Cowboy traders are dealt with by regulation not by putting cowboys in control of us.

You are seriously deluded. Corporate profits are at an all-time high. The share of the total tax burden has never been lower for business or higher for citizens. Many companies (and banks) are sitting on mountains of cash reserves, while the majority of the public are struggling to make ends meet.

Capitalism has failed. It is failing us every day, and it will continue to do so until we stop it.

'would it be fair to judge capitalism by the economic crisis it has created at this time and in this place?'

Capitalism didn't create the crisis. It was people who created the crisis - reckless gamblers and regulators who failed in their duty.

I see. When it comes to Capitalism, it's not the system which is at fault, but the people in the system? But when it comes to Communism, it's the system itself?

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Acton 1887.

Any system requires those responsible for keeping the system going to be ethical and to follow their own rules. Unfortunately, those seeking power and influence don't tend to be those who think the rules apply to them. The rules are just there to make sure no-one can follow them up the ladder.

I don't think the world has experienced socialism, Russia was a Stalinist state, Marx said that change could only happen from the bottom up and would only happen if the proletariat seized control. He also said that there would have to be a period where the state quelled and finally squashed all opposition to communism before we could finally be free. Russia gives us a glimpse of communism that never came to be, a stalled process that was incomplete. I agree with claig in so much as when the "planners" took control they became the elite.

Don't confuse Marxist philosophy and economics with Russian/Chinese communism.

I wonder how many ordinary people would vote conservative if they actually understood conservative philosophy. It supports a hierarchical society with the aristocracy seen as natural leaders, capitalism and the free market economy is fine in so much as now it can be harnessed to support these ideals.

I wonder what would eventually happen when the poor are starved and can no longer be worked and relied upon as economic units of production and demand. The elite will turn upon themselves.

On second thoughts, don't tell them to remove the "moat from their eye". That may prove rather difficult, unless they are on MPs expenses and also have duck ponds. Tell them, instead, to remove the "mote" from their eye.

Nice chatting to you, Solo. Good night.

'We can't all survive, can we? We can't all be the fittest.'

Of course we can. Now you are sounding like Ayn Rand and the elitists. Don't let them fool you. Don't give up hope, the planet will survive.

Capitalism, like democracy, is the best system we have got.

'We'd all be happier if we were nicer to people, you know.'

We are all nice to people. It was teh communist who created teh gulags, we didn't. We allow people to have freedom, we are nice.

Don't believe they people who tell you to be nicer, who tell you that you are destroying the planet. Ask them what they are doing, what they are like and tell them to remove the moat from their eye.