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Original poster

Do we no longer live in a democracy?

265 replies

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 12:30

The United Kingdom purports to be a democracy. And yet, the people of this country have no say in what happens in this country.

Look at the NHS reforms. Nobody voted for them. Cameron and Lansley KNEW that if they announced what they were planning before the election, they would be roundly beaten. And so they kept it secret. Now, when polls say that 73% of voters oppose the use of private companies in the NHS, and 62% of voters do not trust the Tories on the NHS, when they are opposed by many health organisations (Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Nurses, Royal College of Midwives, Royal College of physiotherapists, and the list goes on and on) - their solution is to shut the door on them, and to exclude them from any further discussions.

How is this democracy? Most people DON'T WANT the reforms. Most medical people DON'T WANT the reforms. Even half the government DON'T WANT the reforms. And yet, because Cameron and Lansley want them, this is what is going to happen. Cameron said 'No more top-down reorganisation of the NHS'.

Then we have Michael Gove imposing his 'ban on termtime holidays'. Is it not up to parents to decide how to bring up their children? Has he forgotten that it is not 'his' country, to rule as he wishes, but all of our country.

Even on the economy, we have no democratic say. At the last election, there were 2 distinct approaches. The Labour way, and the LibDem way was to halve the deficit over 4-5 years. The Conservative way was to cut savagely and to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Although elections are rarely fought on one issue, I think in the extraordinary situation of 2010, it would be fair to say that the economy was the over-riding issue, and if ever an election was mono-issue, it was that one.

The first solution, of shallower cuts received about 15.4 million votes. The second solution of savage cuts received 10.7 million votes.

So we get the second option.

The Lib Dems campaigned on a ticket of 'pledging to oppose ANY rise in tution fees'. In government, they are trebling the tuition fees.

David Cameron before the election said he 'liked child benefit being a universal benefit'. He said 'I LIKE child benefit, I WOULDN'T CHANGE child benefit'.

Now he is abolishing child benefit for some in an unfair and incompetent slash at families.

They are liars, and buy votes through lies, and then do whatever the hell they want. We should be able to force an election and actually hold politicians to account. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a fascist dictatorship.

OP posts:
complexnumber · 20/02/2012 17:32

'm not really sure where that leaves me as I find it hard to disagree with, and I knw where that leaves me .

...it leaves me looking like a plonker.

complexnumber · 20/02/2012 17:31

Ariel : Churchill said: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

A fantastic quote, I have not come across that before. :)

I'm not really sure where that leaves me as I find it hard to disagree with, and I knw where that leaves me Hmm.

I my experience there are so many extreme and reactionary views expressed and supported throughout the country that a Parlimentary Democracy is our best bet for creating some sort of reasonable and rational government. It tends to knock the edges off the extreme view points.

yellowraincoat · 20/02/2012 17:16

YABU OP

Not read the rest of the thread, but if you really think this isn't a democracy, you need to go to a country that really ISN'T a democracy.

We don't get a say on individual policies, but there's a reason for that. For a start, it would taking for-fucking-ever.

I hate the Tories as much as the next normal human being, but to say we don't live in a democracy is a bit silly.

GirlWithPointyShoes · 20/02/2012 17:14

Fine, Fine. Sorry about the swearing.

Codswallop. The big guns at the top couldn't give a flying fig what town councils have to say and the potential to make real differences in out communities is becoming impossible due to cuts.

The voice of the public should count for something without status IMO.

ArielNonBio · 20/02/2012 17:14

complexnumber, Churchill said: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Wasn't he an old charmer Hmm?

AfterDinner · 20/02/2012 17:10

Just a side point, but the OP said AIBU to think we no longer live in a democracy?

I'm just wondering when she thought our country was more democratic than it is?

complexnumber · 20/02/2012 17:10

If the majority of the population were in favour of bringing back the death penalty(which I think opinion polls suggest), should we then do it?

That would be true democracy?

And what about banning all foreigners, castrating sex offenders, leaving the EU, bringing back the cane.

All these might views might have a populist attraction to them.

Should we have a referendum on every issue? Or just the ones that some people find important?

Who is to decide?

mummymeister · 20/02/2012 17:04

No it isnt girlwithpointyshoes. its my opinion and it is as valid as yours and anyone elses for that matter. My point is that if people don't like the way the country is run or their local council or town council for that matter then rather than whinge about it they ought to use their time more effectively and get involved. Doing this has the potential to make a real difference to life and their communities - swearing gratuitously at strangers doesnt.

cinnamonnut · 20/02/2012 17:00

I'm surprised there aren't more people agreeing with scaryteacher - I do.

GirlWithPointyShoes · 20/02/2012 16:58

I think we would have a far better government if more people pointed out bollocks when they heard it.

Your post implied that in order for Lily to have a valid opinion (or as you put it "a whinge" about how the country is run she should become an MP.

That's bollocks. Wink

ArielNonBio · 20/02/2012 16:56

We had the chance to change the system. We declined it.

PeppyNephrine · 20/02/2012 16:52

Dear, thats how elections work. The people who can be arsed to vote pick one, and whoever gets the most is the winner. Thats what majority means in this context

Pendeen · 20/02/2012 16:44

The majority of the electorate did not vote for the Tories. Only 65% of the electorate voted.

Even using your figures (I see you like percentages rather than people) 28.99% + 23.03% = 52.02% which, to most people is greater than 36.05%.

36.05% of anything is not a majority. The majority (63.95%) voted for parties other than Tory.

PeppyNephrine · 20/02/2012 16:36

The Torys won the largest percentage of the vote, with 36.05%. Labour won 28.99% and Lib Dem won 23.03%

So I beg to differ. More people voted for Tory than voted for anything else.

Pendeen · 20/02/2012 16:21

" You got the government the majority of your citizens voted for. "

Of course we didn't. In a 65% turnout 29,691,380 people voted and 10,726,614 voted Tory.

(I don't know how many LD voters wanted to align with the Tories but I suspect many were horrified by Clegg's decision - I certainly was).

TroublesomeEx · 20/02/2012 16:15

You're right, it is off topic, but tuition fees is one of the areas where a lot of people feel well and truly stuffed.

I know a lot of people who did vote LD on the strength of their tuition fee pledge alone. They are feeling mightily peed off now!

mummymeister · 20/02/2012 16:14

thanks girlwithpointyshoes glad to see you are still mature enough to offer up some interesting points in an argument. why is it seemingly intelligent people feel the need to swear at people they don't know. still you won't be standing for election which is a relief to us all.

TroublesomeEx · 20/02/2012 16:13

AfterDinner - I suppose the difference is that under the current scheme, when you have paid back what you borrowed you cease to pay (hence my DH will be all paid up this April, whereas I will be unlikely to ever repay mine) yet under the new scheme, when you have repayed the amount you initially borrowed, you continue to pay.

None of it is fair. But the speed and lack of time for families to prepare is probably my biggest gripe with it. Especially when those wealthy enough to pay upfront, won't incur any of it so will only pay exactly what it costs and not a penny more.

Just seems unfair and I do think that it will affect student numbers. My DS and his friends are 13 and already talking about alternatives to university.

In fact my biggest gripe is that the fees don't seem to reflect the standard of the university, the resources, the entry requirements, contact time, the course QAA score of the specific course, the employability of the graduates...

Jux · 20/02/2012 16:09

Throughout history, some oligarchies have been tyrannical, relying on public servitude to exist, although others have been relatively benign. Aristotle pioneered the use of the term as a synonym for rule by the rich, for which the exact term is plutocracy, but oligarchy is not always a rule by wealth, as oligarchs can simply be a privileged group, and do not have to be connected by bloodlines as in a monarchy. Some city-states from ancient Greece were oligarchies.

From Wiki.

AfterDinner · 20/02/2012 15:49

Suggest a better system baby.

AV wouldn't change things significantly.

And PR is just so awful I don't know where to begin.

Neither would produce a majority either.

scaryteacher · 20/02/2012 15:46

Why TBM - what have I done?

babybarrister · 20/02/2012 15:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GirlWithPointyShoes · 20/02/2012 15:41

What a load of bollocks mummy

mummymeister · 20/02/2012 15:33

Lilybolero if you think that you can do a better job than the current politicians then put yourself up as an MP at the next election. Join a political party ( i suspect you are already a member of one!) or stand as an independent. i am fed up of people whinging about how crap labour/libdems/tories politicians are but arent actually prepared to stand up and do the job themselves. You are coming across as an idealistic 20 something perhaps being an old girl like me makes you cynical. seen it done and worn the tee shirt as far as politicians of all parties and their lies are concerned. But and this is the big but, i am not prepared to become an MP so feel my whinging has to be curtailed. And if you don't think we live in a democracy then i suggest you move - go somewhere that really isnt a democracy like china. then stand up in the street and say something anti govt and see how long you last. Honestly some people need to get older so they can get wiser!!

takingbackmonday · 20/02/2012 15:33

can we stop talking about 'cuts' as if they actually exist? Spending has gone up and continues to do so.