Do we no longer live in a democracy?

If it had been a Lib/Lab coalition then I would have felt sad since it would have been bad for the country, its prosperity and its civil liberties. But if that is what the people wanted, then so be it, that is democracy. Ultimately it is the will of teh people that counts and they decide when it is time for a change.

The public swung towards the Tories which is why Clegg went with the Tories. He recognised that the public was asking for change, was asking for a breath of fresh air, and he respected the public's wishes and resolved to work in a government that reflected the public's wishes.

We should be thankful that we live in a democracy where the public can demand an end to hypocrisy, inadequacy, profligacy and misguidedl, crazy policies.

Yes times have changed. The GiuardianICM opinion poll shows the Tories only one point behind Labour in a time of austerity. It will be a long, long time before the public trusts the progressives again and votes them back in. Even though they have done a volte face and are now calling for tax cuts and have partially admitted mea culpa on many of their previous policies, the public will take a lot of convincing before they believe that Labour can change its spot.

Thank God we do live in a democracy and the public voted them out, otherwise we'd all be up twits creek without a saddle.

Don't think it was me that used that definition Ttosca.

And thats why we all vote differently and change is good...

I can't believe that you think anything else would work. Have you looked at what's happening to the PIIGS lately? Have you read what the EU is putting Greece through to get bail out funds? There but for the Coalition goes the UK.

If the Coalition was cutting the NMW by 22% to as is happening in Greece; cutting off benefits after 30 weeks, and then you're on your tod, then you might have something to complain about; but I don't think the Coalition has done that.

This www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/damianreece/9095290/Greece-welcome-to-your-lost-decade.html may give you pause for thought. If the UK can avoid that, and some austerity is the way to do it, then fine.

As for the Coalition being depressing; yes, I'd rather the Lib Dems weren't there. How you feel Malakadoush is how I felt from 1997-2010. Fun, isn't it?

I know OP it's so depressing. I keep thinking about what I could do to fight back in someway - but they seem to hold all the cards.

Then I read posts like scareyteacher and realise that there are actually people out there that still think what they are doing is ok, reasonable and for the good of the country.

You don't know whats going to happen in 20 years though do you? You quite clearly don't like this lot and it would be pointless to argue to the contrary on the subject about it. Which is fair enough and I respect that.

Just never say never.

Lily, whilst you say you will never vote X, keep an open mind and judge on the current form of that party and not the past one. I think that blanket anti sentiment protects undemocratic behaviour.

I do think its terrible that people judge this government on the basis of Thatcher. Whilst there may be common ideology and indeed people who served in that government, its just insanity to think like that. There's been over 20 years in between.

The worst examples are certain councils which will never be voted out. Or the alternative becomes something like the BNP because "I'm never voting X".

People are absolutely right to complain that we don't live in a democracy, because we don't.

The two arguments put forth that we do are specious:

a) The claim the we don't live in a direct democracy, but a 'representative democracy'. Well, that's fine, but the people we elect are supposed to represent us. If they are failing to do that, they are failing in their role as representatives.

Part of participating in a 'representative democracy' is voting for representatives based on their platform and ideas. If the choices we have available to us are either or both indistinguishable or the people who are running don't stick to their manifesto, then our 'choice' of representative is meaningless.

b) The technical definition someone put for (scary teacher?) that we must live in a democracy simply because there were elections and we voted for representatives leads to the conclusion that Iraq and China and representative democracies.

In some countries, there are so-called 'elections', where the dictator gets 105% of the vote, or 95% of the vote, under veiled threat of violence or brutality if you don't vote the 'right' way. In other countries, like China for example, you have the chance to vote for one or two candidates from the Communist Party.

'Democracy' means 'rule by the people': Demos = people, kraty = rule. If people (the public) have no meaningful influence in deciding the the policies and direction the country takes with respect to political, economic and social policy, then it cannot be called a 'democracy'.

LilyBolero Tue 21-Feb-12 11:59:00
Well I never have voted Conservative, never will.

Once upon a time I would have said that. I would have laughed in your face at the idea of voting Tory.

A lot of people feel the same way and would never vote for a party than the one that they have always voted for. So our democracy is effectively determined by a few floating voters who are willing to change their minds.

That would be me. Voted in 4 elections. Got the exact result I wanted in 3. Including the last election. I couldn't vote Labour after the Iraq War and its erosion of civil liberities. I might consider it again, but a lot of things would have to change first (Ed Balls and Ed Milliband being politically murdered for starters).

I did vote Tory this time, though under a certain amount of duress. I ideally wanted a mix of Lib Dem/Tory policies and I was very worried about voting the way I did. I thought the Tories too scary and right wing and the Lib Dems too away with the fairies on their own. So coalition suits me perfectly. Apparently the closest we are likely to ever get to a Liberation Government.

I would probably have voted Lib Dem this election, but felt forced to go blue after our local LD candidate's disgraceful campaign. I do feel that voting for the best candidate for your area is as important as how it affects things nationally. Two days before the election we complained about the scaremongering, misleading and disgusting leaflets to the local lib dem office. Only for us to get a mouthful of abuse and accused of being part of an organised Tory campaign as they had been getting similar calls all day! Needless to say, we weren't and I doubt a lot of other people were either. What she was doing was borderline illegal but all three parties dabbled in that type of campaigning in various places around the country. I find that worse than 'broken promises' from a manifesto.

I do think rules on campaigning need to be better enforced as the leaflets being pushed through letterboxes around the country were dubious and were an affront to democracy. Some of the propaganda was utterly outrageous. And everyone got away with it.

I don't believe in football supporter style voting these days. Its a mugs game. I did when I was in my early 20s. Now I generally believe that given how similar parties are, that after a party has been in power for a certain amount of time, they get too comfy and need to get kicked out. A fresh set of faces and opinions is good for everyone. Which is a big reason I find the idea of PR so awful as you tend to get coalitions with the same people in and you can't kick them out.

Power corrupts.

Do we no longer live in a democracy?

This lady is not amused by your jokes and wishes to know at what time did we live in one?.

Not amused

You're being unrealistic. Tuna is an endangered species, for which there is huge global demand. Millions of Japanese eat fish every day. The freezer costs will be more than outweighed by the costs they will reap. It's like the race to kill the last dodo in the 17th century.....

Anyway, sorry for hijack.

That's stupid. Tuna is hardly a global necessity. Also, how are they keeping it? The freezer costs must outweigh any premium they may get. I cant imagine it keeps for that long anyway.

(The Japanese are stockpiling tuna. Planning for a rainy day so that when tuna become extinct sometime soon, they have a vast store they can charge a premium for.)

Don they always stockpile to an extent (it's a feature of all commodities- Chinese inventories are always the X factor), but they cant stockpile that much (eg ten years worth or whatever), because the numbers simply don't add up- i.e. mining capacity (which is hugely stretched) less steel made = stockpile.

So prices go down for a bit as they work through the stockpiles and then they go up, and that's what commodity traders play, but structurally, China needs Australian iron ore or they cant make enough steel.

scaryteacher Evidently

Cogito, I understand what you are saying about the 90 day detention rule etc. However I think the difference here is that the NHS affects all of us at some point, whereas, for the majority of people in this country, the 90 day detention is something they feel, rightly or wrongly, doesn't affect them as long as they behave themselves. Don't jump on me for that - I said "rightly or wrongly".

The Chinese are stockpiling productive land as well as natural resources. They are buying up vast tracts of Africa. And so are western "democracies", at the same time as pouring food aid into the continent. But that's another thread...

Midnight - are you happy pouring money into Greece without reform? No? That's how I feel about the NHS - in some parts (geriatric care / palliative care for instance) it is not fit for purpose. I ask again, why, for a place the size of the UK, we have the third largest employer on the planet in the NHS. Why do we need something that large and unwieldy? Could it not be done better, more efficiently with people moving between the private/state sectors as necessary?

Ariel - my MP is now Sheryll Murray, was Colin Breed. Yours is evidently Andrew George then.

Lily - going back on a manifesto pledge isn't fraud, and as Cogito has pointed out, trying to balance both the manifesto pledges of the coalition parties is an interesting exercise. As for including Labour MPs in the coalition - I can't think of any of them that I would trust to have there, unless it was Kate Hoey.

Yes, RealLife, BUT... there's been an evidence-backed argument doing the rounds that what the Chinese have been doing with Australian natural resources is stockpiling, buying far more than they need for now, and that when they're done, they will suddenly pull the plug.

One can have all the natural resources in the world, but they are useless if there's a glut.

I get it that a lot of people are worried about the NHS reforms but the government is responsible for a lot more than one topic in isolation. Personally, I was horrified by (amongst other things) the attacks on civil liberties under the last government that weren't in their manifesto i.e. 90 days detention without trial and offensive ideas such as DNA databases and ID cards. However, the system is that we don't vote governments in and out based on isolated bad decisions unless there is a vote of no confidence in parliament.