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Original poster

Do we no longer live in a democracy?

265 replies

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 12:30

The United Kingdom purports to be a democracy. And yet, the people of this country have no say in what happens in this country.

Look at the NHS reforms. Nobody voted for them. Cameron and Lansley KNEW that if they announced what they were planning before the election, they would be roundly beaten. And so they kept it secret. Now, when polls say that 73% of voters oppose the use of private companies in the NHS, and 62% of voters do not trust the Tories on the NHS, when they are opposed by many health organisations (Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Nurses, Royal College of Midwives, Royal College of physiotherapists, and the list goes on and on) - their solution is to shut the door on them, and to exclude them from any further discussions.

How is this democracy? Most people DON'T WANT the reforms. Most medical people DON'T WANT the reforms. Even half the government DON'T WANT the reforms. And yet, because Cameron and Lansley want them, this is what is going to happen. Cameron said 'No more top-down reorganisation of the NHS'.

Then we have Michael Gove imposing his 'ban on termtime holidays'. Is it not up to parents to decide how to bring up their children? Has he forgotten that it is not 'his' country, to rule as he wishes, but all of our country.

Even on the economy, we have no democratic say. At the last election, there were 2 distinct approaches. The Labour way, and the LibDem way was to halve the deficit over 4-5 years. The Conservative way was to cut savagely and to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Although elections are rarely fought on one issue, I think in the extraordinary situation of 2010, it would be fair to say that the economy was the over-riding issue, and if ever an election was mono-issue, it was that one.

The first solution, of shallower cuts received about 15.4 million votes. The second solution of savage cuts received 10.7 million votes.

So we get the second option.

The Lib Dems campaigned on a ticket of 'pledging to oppose ANY rise in tution fees'. In government, they are trebling the tuition fees.

David Cameron before the election said he 'liked child benefit being a universal benefit'. He said 'I LIKE child benefit, I WOULDN'T CHANGE child benefit'.

Now he is abolishing child benefit for some in an unfair and incompetent slash at families.

They are liars, and buy votes through lies, and then do whatever the hell they want. We should be able to force an election and actually hold politicians to account. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a fascist dictatorship.

OP posts:
Tortington · 22/02/2012 09:00

Rowan Williams June last year: "anger and anxiety" felt by voters is a result of the government's failure to expose its policies to "proper public argument......"
"With remarkable speed, we are being committed to radical, long-term policies for which no one voted,"
"At the very least, there is an understandable anxiety about what democracy means in such a context......"

"...the comprehensive reworking of the Education Act 1944 that is now going forward might well be regarded as a proper matter for open probing in the context of election debates." Gove's free school reforms were pushed through Parliament with a haste usually reserved for emergency anti-terrorist powers.

He warns "Government badly needs to hear just how much plain fear there is around such questions at present."

in short, no one voted for this democracy

Original poster
LilyBolero · 22/02/2012 08:57

Hilly - have you read the thread? Have you even read my last post? I VOTED libdem in the last election!

OP posts:
HillyWallaby · 22/02/2012 08:52

We do live in a democracy and by one convoluted way or another, this is what we voted for. Sorry it might not suit you, but to say it is no longer a democracy because your team didn't win is silly.

Tortington · 22/02/2012 08:49

a counter argument isn't "...Labour started it/did worse/fucked kittens"

It doesn't excuse the fact that the Tory bastards are dismantling any last safety net of the poor

Original poster
LilyBolero · 22/02/2012 08:42

claig, you are missing a fundamental point of this thread - you are trying to counter every argument with a pro-Tory statement, usually along the lines of 'Labour were really terrible'....

But that isn't the point of the thread. It is not meant to be a party-political thread, rather one that looks at the current system in this country, whereby politicians have no-one to hold them to account, and as such can lie their way into power, and then do whatever they want. Right or left, that is wrong.

And the particular results the last election threw up with no one party claiming a majority, opened the way for our government to be decided by ONE party, who came third in the election. And that is not right. And I would be saying that whether it were Cameron, or Brown, or Miliband, or anyone in number 10. I am convinced that the only fair thing to do would be to have representatives of all parties. Or you could hold a 2nd ballot of yes/no on a proposed coalition, but obviously that would take longer to implement and be expensive.

I don't think politicians should be able to call all the shots in the way they do - they are supposed to represent the people, and the NHS is a perfect example of how one or two people, by virtue of being politicians, can make MAJOR changes to how the country runs, when NOBODY wants it. And that is not right.

OP posts:
claig · 22/02/2012 07:59

Thanks for that, Jux. I didn't know that about Canute. He sounds very wise. I take it back; he has nothing in common with an early socialist whatsoever. However, it seems the same cannot be said about his people.

Jux · 22/02/2012 00:48

Oh and Claig, Canute was trying to demonstrate to his people that he was only a man and couldn't stop the tide. He knew he couldn't, and was showing the flatterers surrounding him that he couldn't, that he was no more than they were.

Jux · 22/02/2012 00:44

How about a fifth of constituencies voting every 5 years. That way no party has guaranteed power for any more than a year at a time. The PM is demoted to mere figurehead to shake hands with Heads of State and host party functions.

claig · 22/02/2012 00:15

'When the NHS quagmire develops, and the cuts destroy more lives, even fewer people will support them.'

Yes that is possible and is why some Tory MPs are asking for it to be dropped. We don't know what will happen. We will have to see if it goes through or not.

'Just because they don't like Labour, don't think this means they support the Tories'

I agree, lots of people don't like either of them much, but they usually like one better than the other.

ttosca · 22/02/2012 00:14

zzzzzzz...

Good night, you strange, confused, ideologically-incoherent, right-wing populist. :P

claig · 22/02/2012 00:12

'Why don't you get some political education and stop reading the Daily Mail?'

What paper do you think all those progressive spin doctors read every morning? They devour the Daily Mail every morning in order to read the truth so that they can counter it with lies.

ttosca · 22/02/2012 00:10

They just dropped 4 points in the polls, and are now polling below Labour.

When the NHS quagmire develops, and the cuts destroy more lives, even fewer people will support them.

Secondly. the ratings are relative. Some voters voted New Labour out, rather than the Tories in. Because of our broken political system, voters have few choices and no real choice. Just because they don't like Labour, don't think this means they support the Tories. It doesn't follow.

claig · 22/02/2012 00:06

'Having lied and pretended not to be nasty any more viz. destroying the NHS, and just barely getting enough votes to form a coalition but not win a majority, they are now on course to set the public straight again exactly the sociopathic and nasty policies they are known for.'

Then why are their poll ratings only now neck and neck with Labour and only last month were at record highs?

claig · 22/02/2012 00:03

King Canute's hyperbolic proclamation "we have only 50 days left to stop the tide" didn't convince the voters then and it doesn't now. To convince voters you have to get real.

ttosca · 22/02/2012 00:03

Because he didn't try. He didn't score any open goals. He let Gordon off the hook about Mrs Duffy and nearly everything else Labour had done over their 13 years. I think they wanted a Coalition, not a Tory government on its own, because that would draw all the "Tory scum" crowd to oppose the reforms they knew were necessary. I think they wanted strength through unity.

The Tories weren't elected because they still - rightfully - have a reputation as being the 'nasty' party, and people's memories aren't so short. They still remember the destruction caused by Thatcher and previous Tory governments.

Having lied and pretended not to be nasty any more viz. destroying the NHS, and just barely getting enough votes to form a coalition but not win a majority, they are now on course to set the public straight again exactly the sociopathic and nasty policies they are known for.

It will take yet another generation to forget before they're elected again.

ttosca · 21/02/2012 23:59

I think that is the real world, not the world of socialist theory. The socialists do exactly the same. Look at the Iraq war.

What about the Iraq war? Socialists weren't in power during the Iraq war. Socialists opposed the Iraq war.

Why don't you get some political education and stop reading the Daily Mail?

ttosca · 21/02/2012 23:58

'That may be one reason why the quality of life there is so much higher than the UK.'

and maybe because they have a right wing government voted in by the people.

Hahahaha! Your political ignorance is showing again, Claig. I can assure you that, on the whole, the political climate in France is a lot more socialist and public oriented than in the UK.

One just needs to compare the number of working hours, workers rights, union rights, and public expenditure of the UK compared with France, and in fact, many other european countries, to see that the UK political and economic model is more closely aligned with the US than europe. That is to say, it is more right wing, more economically 'free-market'.

claig · 21/02/2012 23:58

King Canute was probably an early socialist, railing against the world and ordering nature to change to stop the tide. It is better to understand nature, people, politics and the world, so that you can effect change by swimming with the tide instead of demanding "fundamental change" and throwing your toys out of the pram when teh majority disagree with you, because that is a sure route to failure.

claig · 21/02/2012 23:53

'You may be satisfied with electing parties which, when elected, do as they please, with or without a mandate, but I don't. I don't call this 'democracy'.'

I think that is the real world, not the world of socialist theory. The socialists do exactly the same. Look at the Iraq war.

claig · 21/02/2012 23:49

'Why do YOU think David Cameron couldn't get a majority, even after the worst financial crisis in modern times?'

Because he didn't try. He didn't score any open goals. He let Gordon off the hook about Mrs Duffy and nearly everything else Labour had done over their 13 years. I think they wanted a Coalition, not a Tory government on its own, because that would draw all the "Tory scum" crowd to oppose the reforms they knew were necessary. I think they wanted strength through unity.

claig · 21/02/2012 23:46

'I don't think the party who came last out of the main parties should consider that a mandate to implement their policies.'

But the Tories have not implemented many LibDem policies, because they are the majority in the Coalition. They only agree to some of them and make a compromise over them.

Original poster
LilyBolero · 21/02/2012 23:46

Why do YOU think David Cameron couldn't get a majority, even after the worst financial crisis in modern times?

I think even the mistrustful public though are staggered at the scale of his deception on the NHS.

OP posts:
claig · 21/02/2012 23:44

'And I (as I may have said before on this thread ) have a real problem with buying votes with lies, that you know are lies, and within a few weeks will be proven to be lies.'

You're not alone there. Why do you think so many people abandoned Labour?

claig · 21/02/2012 23:42

'That may be one reason why the quality of life there is so much higher than the UK.'

and maybe because they have a right wing government voted in by the people.

claig · 21/02/2012 23:41

Governments have always made alliances in parliament to get bills through, like when they did deals with the Unionists or other smaller parties. It is a quid pro quo and has always gone on. Government is about compromise and making deals and striking bargains to get legislation through. It's the way things work. It's not a dictatorship, they have to come to agreement and strike bargains.