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Politics

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Do we no longer live in a democracy?

265 replies

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 12:30

The United Kingdom purports to be a democracy. And yet, the people of this country have no say in what happens in this country.

Look at the NHS reforms. Nobody voted for them. Cameron and Lansley KNEW that if they announced what they were planning before the election, they would be roundly beaten. And so they kept it secret. Now, when polls say that 73% of voters oppose the use of private companies in the NHS, and 62% of voters do not trust the Tories on the NHS, when they are opposed by many health organisations (Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Nurses, Royal College of Midwives, Royal College of physiotherapists, and the list goes on and on) - their solution is to shut the door on them, and to exclude them from any further discussions.

How is this democracy? Most people DON'T WANT the reforms. Most medical people DON'T WANT the reforms. Even half the government DON'T WANT the reforms. And yet, because Cameron and Lansley want them, this is what is going to happen. Cameron said 'No more top-down reorganisation of the NHS'.

Then we have Michael Gove imposing his 'ban on termtime holidays'. Is it not up to parents to decide how to bring up their children? Has he forgotten that it is not 'his' country, to rule as he wishes, but all of our country.

Even on the economy, we have no democratic say. At the last election, there were 2 distinct approaches. The Labour way, and the LibDem way was to halve the deficit over 4-5 years. The Conservative way was to cut savagely and to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Although elections are rarely fought on one issue, I think in the extraordinary situation of 2010, it would be fair to say that the economy was the over-riding issue, and if ever an election was mono-issue, it was that one.

The first solution, of shallower cuts received about 15.4 million votes. The second solution of savage cuts received 10.7 million votes.

So we get the second option.

The Lib Dems campaigned on a ticket of 'pledging to oppose ANY rise in tution fees'. In government, they are trebling the tuition fees.

David Cameron before the election said he 'liked child benefit being a universal benefit'. He said 'I LIKE child benefit, I WOULDN'T CHANGE child benefit'.

Now he is abolishing child benefit for some in an unfair and incompetent slash at families.

They are liars, and buy votes through lies, and then do whatever the hell they want. We should be able to force an election and actually hold politicians to account. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a fascist dictatorship.

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MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/02/2012 13:40

I think that was a typo Garlic.

garlicfrother · 20/02/2012 13:36

One of Cameron's election pledges was to "cut the deficit not the NHS"
He has done neither. He was democratically (nearly) elected on the basis of false promises. In a court of law, he'd be guilty of fraud.

So, no: not democratic. YANBU and IAVA

TwllBach · 20/02/2012 13:35

I'm interested in that as well itsallgoingtobefine I'm never sure how much will 'cross the border'

Not that it will stop me shouting loud and long about how wrong it all is, but I would like to know.

MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/02/2012 13:33

The Lib Dems could only have been effective in coalition if the Conservatives had won less seats - If they needed the Lib Dems more.

MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/02/2012 13:31

MrsHeffley it is tragic. At a time when plans are being made to dismantle the NHS we have no Opposition. It's not even a vacuum because that would at least draw in a few bits of lint that might mildly annoy Cameron by sticking to his jacket. It's like the Labour party disappeared. They're still there right? No-one's noticed a lot of empty benches on one side of the House?

ArielNonBio · 20/02/2012 13:29

The way the voting system works is more than one man, Lily. I'm talking long term.

And yes ideally, Nick Clegg would have some integrity instead of being a spineless, lily livered piece of crap.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 20/02/2012 13:28

Are these nhs 'reforms' happening in Wales too?

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 13:27

ArielnonBio - it wasn't the British voters who blew it, it was Nick Clegg. Because he had the chance to show how a 3rd party could be a real force for good in a coalition, and to show how a system that would encourage coalitions would be good.

He blew it big time. Anyone who saw the shambles we have as a Government would want to make coalitions as unlikely as possible.

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MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/02/2012 13:26

This is what frightens me - we have a non-elected government that has questionable ideology, and staggering incompetence (the child benefit debacle is a perfect example of this

Agree completely. They are pursuing idealogical cuts using the economic situation as justification.

They have found the money to bribe local councils to keep weekly bin collections because they know that this is an issue that would alienate their core voters. They have pushed 'free schools', so areas that already have sufficient provision of school places are forced to pay out money to new schools where can have people teaching without any professional qualifications!

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 13:26

Link here

"Risk assessments drawn up by the four English health regions warn that there is a high risk of the proposed reforms reducing safety and patient care and causing overspending. The internal reports warn of a high risk that the improvements in management and reduced costs that the reforms are supposed to achieve may not come about."

"In London, officials have warned that there is a high risk of losing key staff, which, combined with poor information sharing, could lead to a "preventable harm to children"."

"Last year, civil servants at the Department of Health drew up a one-off national-risk register that is thought to have raised similar concerns. Mr Lansley is fighting a legal battle to avoid having to publish it."

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ArielNonBio · 20/02/2012 13:25

I agree it's depressing and infuriating. It makes me want to kill them.

But voters had the chance to change the way our voting system works to try and prevent this sort of government in the referendum last year. They blew it. That is also deeply depressing. We won't get the chance again any time soon.

IDoNotLIKEFun · 20/02/2012 13:25

There is also Responsible Reform

A consultancy took place as required, but the findings were ignored and breached the government's own code of practice.

Pre-election Dave told a high-profile MNer to her face in her own home that the Tories would take care of disabled people.

The House of Lords are being reduced to figureheads.

We have never pretended to live in meritocracy, so many intelligent people who are disadvantaged will never succeed and also many limited people who have had every advantage will always do well.

MrsHeffley · 20/02/2012 13:24

I guess all we can do is not vote for Con Dems(which I didn't).

Anybody know of a good alternative????? Seriously dp and I want to start supporting some serious opposition,tiny problem though-can't see any.

Are there any other decent parties worth supporting?

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 13:23

Did you also know there is a risk assessment report on the NHS reforms, which ministers are refusing to publish, as it is damning?

They said it is 'for internal use only'......

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MrsHeffley · 20/02/2012 13:22

You are soooooo right op.Dp and I had this exact conversation last night.

Re the NHS talks today why is nobody doing anything??????I feel powerless and I guess so does everybody else so we do nothing.

lisaro · 20/02/2012 13:21

I felt that when Iraq was illegally invaded in our name

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 13:20

Thankgodforcaffeine - I get that, and actually I do agree, sort of.

But.

I don't think it should be LEGAL for a government to be just-about-elected, on a ticket of 'Our priority is the NHS, WE WILL STOP ALL THIS POINTLESS REORGANISATION', 'NO MORE TOP-DOWN REORGANISATION' - then within a few weeks of getting into number 10, launch the biggest top-down reorganisation in the NHS' history.

That's not democracy. It's lies.

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MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/02/2012 13:19

I had a very brief flirtation with liking the Lib Dems in the 90s. Then I found out how they behaved. They distributed leaflets designed to play on racist fears to get votes in areas of London. They have no core - they do or say whatever is necessary to get votes. Yes, all parties do this to a degree, but no others swing as far along the political spectrum to hoover up votes. If they can't even come up with a coherent position before they're in power how can anyone trust them?

Thankgodforcaffeine · 20/02/2012 13:16

I'm with scaryteacher on this one.

And just because a reform isn't popular doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do in the long term.

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 13:16

scaryteacher - you have used the Thatcherite principle of comparing a country's economy to a household budget. Doesn't work. They're completely different animals.

She was fond of comparing them, but they are not comparable. As a quick example, a country's economy depends on growth, and if you cut too much spending, you cut the growth, and so your deficit gets bigger. In a household, this wouldn't happen. The only comparison I could see would be if you decided to save money on fuel bills by not going to work....

Of course they knew what state the country was in. In fact, they over-egged it massively - most economists are now of the view that they exaggerated the problems to give themselves a mandate for cuts. And in fact, a lot of the flat-lining economy could be put down to Osborne's talking down of the economy and scaring people into not spending.

This is what frightens me - we have a non-elected government that has questionable ideology, and staggering incompetence (the child benefit debacle is a perfect example of this).

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MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/02/2012 13:11

Thank you ScaryTeacher for illustrating the Tory voter view.

HoopDeDoo · 20/02/2012 13:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 13:08

MildlyNarkyPuffin - the LibDem voters VOTED THE REFORMS OUT at the last LibDem conference.

The Tory CABINET are starting to oppose the reforms.

PeppyNephrine - it's because the Tories didn't win a majority, and then the LibDems decided to throw every principle they ever pretended to have down the toilet in order to get a whiff of power. I despise them.

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MildlyNarkyPuffin · 20/02/2012 13:06

Of course it's the voters fault! The Conservative party hasn't been hiding it's attitudes! They are idealogically opposed to the state provision of services. They have taken every opportunity in the past to privatise state companies and bring private companies into the state sector.They were never going to be safe in control of the NHS.

The Lib Dems will agree with anything that gets them a seat at the top table. Look at the way they behave in local councils around the country - they'll side with labour or the conservatives if it gets them into a governing majority.

Where are the Conservative voters clamouring for Cameron to drop his NHS plans? Where are the Lib Dem voters telling Clegg that they'll drop them for good if they stand by and let this happen?

LilyBolero · 20/02/2012 13:06

Some of the professional bodies are unions. Others aren't. Every doctor I know is against the reform. Every patient I know is against the reform. In the country most voters are against the reform (which we will have to pay for). And we haven't been asked.

I don't regard this as the government we voted for. In our area, the LibDems campaigned on a ticket of 'A LibDem vote is the only way to keep the Tories out'. Our seat is a 3-way marginal, and they did their very best to play on 'fear of the Tories', suggesting that a vote for Labour was wasted, and the only way to keep the Tories out of Government was voting LibDem.

It makes me sick.

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