Do we no longer live in a democracy?

Meh. Democracy like all regimes starts off good and then starts going bad after the honeymoon period.

Hitler was democratic and fair at the beginning before turning murderous half way through. Modern politics is based on that same "bait and switch" principle.

Politicians are simply men with not enough brains and contacts to be good capitalists and run corporations. So instead lease their positions of power to those who can pay them and their backers handsomely.

The NHS, public transport, banks and public in general are now being sold up the river at a profit to those at the top.

scaryteacher because I agree with everything you say and it's refreshing to see someone argue solidly against the standard pro-labour tory-hating guardianista liberal-elite MN spirit.

Ttosca - I think that removing the 10% tax rate from the poorest was fairly cynical; I don't think the poorest in society are going to be left without a safety net, but simplifying the benefit system has to be a good thing. It will hopefully make accessing it easier and make it easier to understand as well. I think your derogatory comments however make you seem childish.

As for what's happening to Greece, I think I mentioned what was going on there far earlier in the thread. If the govt in the UK doesn't get hold of the debt and doesn't stick to the austerity measures laid out, then that is where the UK will end up, after some of the major European countries have toppled like Belgium and France. The only reason that the Greek problem is being pushed down the road is to buy time for the French and German banks to rid themselves of Greek holdings and to make sure they are stabilised. It will be interesting to see if the Greeks go for a democratic solution at the polls, or if the Military decide to take matters into their own hands.

I can't comment on the quality of life in France, but same shit, different place applies to Belgium. I can't say that the bank and some shops shutting for lunch enhances my quality of life, or that some shops are shut on a Monday because they have been open on a Saturday. The level of bureaucracy is astounding and seems to be about creating non-jobs rather than necessary ones. The employment laws seem archaic (difficult to sack anyone) and the practice of 13th and 14th month payments still occurs. It is very expensive to live here, and I go back to UK to shop whenever I get the opportunity (things like electronics, cheese, butter, clothes, shoes etc).

'Can you try to talk without relying on cliches?'

I'm sorry, but I have to refer to your quotes.

Gotta go.

Can you try to talk without relying on cliches?

It's not 'utopian' to expect meaningful democracy. It's both a right, and perfectly reasonable.

But the world is not perfect, there is no socialist utopia and utopias are always necessarily dystopias.

Form your own party and offer a different platform or work with Labour to try to steer their policy in the direction you believe is the best. You are a free agent in a free country, but the people are free to reject your opinions and vote for an alternative.

That is democracy. It is not perfect, and you won't always get your way, but it always beats tyranny.

The great thing about democracy is that you have a chance to kick them out if you disagree with what they do. You have to wait 5 years and then you can have a say with the rest of the population. You can vote on their record. If the public agree with you then they will be voted out, just as Labour lost their majority this time round.

Yeah, isn't it great? You can then vote in the other team, who will also avoid talking about important issues which they fear will harm their electoral chances, who will also make pledges which they renounce when they're in office, who will also take the country to an illegal and immoral war, and who will also institute policies for which they have no mandate and no public support.

Rinse and repeat.

The only thing I have taken is a strong coffee after I tried your "logical argument". But I am afraid it is still no clearer.

Even the children of the nation boo Punch. Thank God for democracy.

?

Have you taken your medication, Claig?

ttosca I hardly think we can compare our voting system with China's, do you?

Try to follow the logical argument.

The simple fact that people voted doesn't mean that we live in a democracy. Democracy has to be meaningful. It parties make promises and then do the exact opposite, with no mandate, and furthermore against the wishes of the majority of the public, like what the Tories are doing with the NHS, then we have a problem with democracy.

Even the children of the nation boo Punch. Thank God for democracy.

Well I meant the voters, Claig but I get your point. I sometimes wonder why NC took this poisoned chalice, and didn't just sit back and let Dave get on with it by himself, then pick up the mantle in four years time, when the worst bit of the job had been done, and everyone hated his guts! Like screaming at the doctor that has to amputate your limb without anaesthetic by the roadside, so you don't bleed to death.

Except in this case, it's not a limb, but the NHS, welfare, public services, workers rights, etc. In short, anything which makes a country vaguely civilised and not based on brutality.

Exactly, Hilly. Clegg could easily have played the yah boo role, but he lnows how serious the predicament of teh country is and that is why he is doing everything he can to work towards a resolution of the problem. All the yah booers are giving him stick in the manner of the biggest yah booer of all, the puppet Punch. But he takes the jibes for the good of the nation, and I think there is no doubt that the Coalition will win next time. The public always boo Punch.

ttosca I hardly think we can compare our voting system with China's, do you?

The great thing about democracy is that you have a chance to kick them out if you disagree with what they do. You have to wait 5 years and then you can have a say with the rest of the population. You can vote on their record. If the public agree with you then they will be voted out, just as Labour lost their majority this time round.

Yes but you didn't vote for a coalition, and you didn't vote for the cuts you are complaining about. But we got what we got as a result of the way we all voted, one way or another.

Same situation with China then. It's the fault of the public for voting for one of the two approved candidates of the Communist party.

We do live in a democracy and by one convoluted way or another, this is what we voted for. Sorry it might not suit you, but to say it is no longer a democracy because your team didn't win is silly.

Yes, that would be a silly thing to say. Fortunately, nobody has said that.

Well I meant the voters, Claig but I get your point. I sometimes wonder why NC took this poisoned chalice, and didn't just sit back and let Dave get on with it by himself, then pick up the mantle in four years time, when the worst bit of the job had been done, and everyone hated his guts! Like screaming at the doctor that has to amputate your limb without anaesthetic by the roadside, so you don't bleed to death.

It was always going to be a thankless task no matter who we gave the job to.

Well said HillyWallaby.

However, I disagree with this bit
"We all selfish in the end."

Coalition members such as Nick Clegg and many others are not and they are prepared to sacrifice some of their wishes for the good of the country as a whole.

"Why do YOU think David Cameron couldn't get a majority, even after the worst financial crisis in modern times?"

I think it was because the public sector/state had become such a lumbering great behemoth on the back of which so many millions of people rode, that they were scared to vote for anyone who might want to rein it in a bit and cut it down to size. I think it was all about self-preservation. That is not a criticism btw, I think it is wholly understandable under the circumstances. If my job or my benefits or my public sector pension had been directly in the firing line by voting for anyone other than Gordon Brown then I would probably have voted for him too, irrespective of whether I believed he was responsible for the mess we were in, or capable of getting us out of it. We all selfish in the end.

RowanWilliams is talking nonsense

"With remarkable speed, we are being committed to radical, long-term policies for which no one voted,"
"At the very least, there is an understandable anxiety about what democracy means in such a context......"

Did he say the same about teh curtailment of teh country's civil liberties and of the proposed introduction of ID cards and DNA databases, and teh end of double jeopardy?

No government since the beginning of time has only implemented policies that it spelt out in a manifesto, but that doesn't mean that we have never had democracy. If that was the case, why isn't Rowan Williams marching in the streets to defend democracy if he really believes what he says?

"Why do YOU think David Cameron couldn't get a majority, even after the worst financial crisis in modern times?"

My honest opinion is that it was because people didn't actually realise how bad the economic crisis was. If you remember, just a few short years ago, one of the biggest problems facing politicians of all colours was voter apathy. Low turn-outs, zero interest in political matters, too many 'don't knows' etc. And the reason we had apathy was because we had been rendered dumb, fat and happy with an orgy of credit card borrowing and a Labour government, 'intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich', happy to blew all our taxes, and some more besides on making millions dependent on the state rather than investing in sustainable industries and capital projects. Everyone, government included, confused 'easy credit' with 'wealth creation' and at the last election we hadn't quite woken up to reality and we weren't angry yet. Darling tried to warn us what was ahead but we weren't listening.

The cynic in me wishes that Labour had won in 2010 and that they were the ones having to make the tough decisions being made today. The pragmatist is glad they didn't.

HillyWallaby is right.

The fact that 'Labour were terrible' doesn't mean that we didn't have democracy when they were in power.

Your argument is that we no longer live in a democracy. Did you argue that when Labour were in power? When Blair never held a majority of teh votes of the entire voting population? Blair had more votes than any other single party and enough to form a government. That is how our democracy works, but he was never representative of the majority of the country's people.

Alliances and coalitions are not the end of democracy as you are implying. In fact they are more represntative of the entire population than first past the post overall minority winners. A coalition is more diverse than one single party and the coalition holds the leadership to greater account since teh leadership has to take account of diverse views that reflect a greater spread of the population.

The Labour party itself is an alliance and a coalition of individuals from the far left to the centre, who agree common policies. After they gain election, they often implement things that were not in their manifestos. That is the real world. It is complex, not a simplistic black or white system that was all predfined in a manifesto.

We have democracy now, just as we had it when Labour were in power under a Lib-Lab pact or on their own. Tories never complained that it was the end of democracy, why are you complaining that because you now disagree with the Coalition's policies?

Yes but you didn't vote for a coalition, and you didn't vote for the cuts you are complaining about. But we got what we got as a result of the way we all voted, one way or another.