Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Politics

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think some posters need a "reality check" re. views on benefit changes

704 replies

lesley33 · 25/01/2012 12:02

I have some concerns about some of the proposed changes to benefits and how these may adversely affect people. So this is NOT a thread about that. But I am getting increasingly fed up at some of the frankly ridiculous reasons some posters are giving against the proposed changes. Examples include:

  1. That children 12 and over will be traumatised if both parents work - even if second parent only works 20 hours a week.
  1. That a parent with children 12 and over shouldn't have to commute up to 90 minutes each way to work. Far from ideal I know and if someone is on low wages this might not be affordable. But perfectly doable.
  1. That childcare is impossible to get for teenagers. Ignoring the fact that many parents, myself included use a combination of kids home alone and afterschool activities.

AIBU to think some people need a reality check? Plenty of people with children already work, many with both parents working full time by the time their kids are teenagers. Plenty of people have long commutes, struggle with childcare, etc. Things might not be "ideal", but these are things that many many working parents already do.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 26/01/2012 16:23

'math the generation who set up the welfare state and the NHS never forsaw how bloated they would become.
The former was set up to scoop up those in dire need. And quite rightly so. But it was never planned to be as widespread as is now the case.'

Absolutely the growth and the general air of promise and optimism of the postwar years blinded everyone to the possibility that there could ever be years of slow or no growth. Yes, the welfare state has grown, and much else has changed too. Much of the landscape of Britain would not be recognisable to someone who lived alone in a cave since 1948. Change has been exponential on every level and practically nobody could have foreseen a lot of it. Who could have predicted the fate of British heavy manufacturing, the hobbling of mining, the development of a service economy back in the late 1940s the result of all of those factors has been the end of solid union jobs for the working class, the rise of poorly paid service jobs, the rise of job insecurity, and the rise in need.

To strip away the financial underpinnings of a large bloc of the population just at a time when they are most needed and when the employment outlook is at its most bleak will not turn back the clock to start again and do welfare 'right' this time. The basic fact that there may not be jobs out there for all the hundreds of thousands of people who will need them remains. There will still be people in dire need, and in fact there will be more people in dire need. That much is predictable at a time of slow to no growth and global financial upheaval.

The welfare state was designed with the basic underlying principle that all people are equal, that equality itself is really good for the body politic and that basic human dignity is something worthwhile in a concrete way from an economic and a moral and a political pov. Apathy about politics, apathy about education, and lack of engagement with the idea of a national entity result from inequality, from a perception that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Such perceptions do not come from thin air. The appeal of right wing populism is shown here imo, and so also is the apathy generated by perceptions of how society has become fractured, with the redistribution of wealth going in favour of the better off for at least two generations now.

The flip side of the coin is that widespread welfare, income support and the existence of the NHS have made it possible for British employers to pay less than they might otherwise have to for qualified employees, and that has resulted in the upward flow of profits and the rise and rise of the stock exchange. Capital has not in general found its way back into the economy in the form of investment or small business but instead has flowed into investment via the exchanges, often into foreign economies and of course into the pockets of the well off. The individual taxpayer has paid for the NHS and for the other services of the welfare state while British business has benefited from the taking up of slack that income support, housing benefit, etc., has afforded. British business in its blind way tends to ignore that which does not hit it in the pocket, or stop to analyse factors that contribute to the bottom line, but American business is very conscious of the costs that someone must incur in a developed society which holds certain values, however tenuously in the case of the US, and which have a direct impact on profits -- like providing health insurance for employees for instance.

wubblybubbly · 26/01/2012 16:20

It must be a very difficult time MrsDeVere. Well, even more so than usual. x

kelly2000 · 26/01/2012 16:18

rediculus????????

TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 16:18

wubblybubbly i didnt 'tell anyone what to do' i talked about my own experiences.

you did it to minimise their experiences and that's just plain mean
you are choosing to think that but you are incorrect. where did i say that? i was told i knew nothing.

kelly2000 · 26/01/2012 16:17

How is a 90 minute commute rediculus, that si what you do when you cannot get work near you, you commute rather than do nothing. Its not ideal, but it is either that or not working, and why shoudl people be able to refuse to work because they want to volunter. Volunteering is fine, but do it in your own time. Expectign everyone else to pick up the tab for your lifestyle choices is ridiculas. Fien you do not want to commute 90 mins, stay at home, but do not expect others to give you money for that choice. If everyone who commuted an hour or more suddenly decided they woudl only take locla jobs there would be thousands more people on benefits, and not paying tax which would mean the welfare state would collapse with no-one to pay for it.

Hecubasdaughter · 26/01/2012 16:13

Who are the arseholes *valar?

wubblybubbly · 26/01/2012 16:13

No Tilly, you really shouldn't presume to tell anyone to count their blessings.

I read what you said and you didn't actually make that comment with any consideration for those in difficult circumstances, you did it to minimise their experiences and that's just plain mean.

kelly2000 · 26/01/2012 16:13

I do think think saying you can get the average wage even if you do not have a job is treating people cruelly, or tearing the welfare system apart. And I think for all people are syaing about the tories they will end up winning our right in the next election because the average person supports a cap on benefits to the average wage, and disagrees with those saying that the unemployed should get more than the average employed.

lesley33 · 26/01/2012 16:09

jellybeans - And those things are fine if you can afford them. I think though it is unreasonable to expect the benefit system to fund those "ideal" situations. Benefits should be a safety net, not just to fund our volunteering if we want to do that instead of working, or if we want to avoid a long commute, or avoid ever having to put our children in any kind of childcare so we can work.

OP posts:
TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 16:08

in fact quite a lot of people have not just said i shouldnt have said it but i am an arsehole for saying it.

something that helps you, & helped me.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 26/01/2012 16:07

wubbly emerging from the gloom of DD's birthday but getting there thank you sweetheart.

x

TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 16:05

wubblybubbly so you do a different version of what i did, & yet i shouldnt tell anyone?

you & i have both said it helps. but i shouldnt mention it?

tabulahrasa · 26/01/2012 16:04

'towerhamlets is central london. do you really think there are no jobs? what explains its unemplyment rate higher than liverpool?'

Well I don't know the area at all, what with only having being to London twice, lol...but I'd wonder how static the population is, is it a case of that is where people live whilst unemployed and the sort of place where no-one would live there if there was any other option so move if they can and new unemployed people then move in?

Is it an area with a large stock of social housing, considerably larger than surrounding areas for instance? So that anyone unemployed and looking for social housing from the surrounding areas ends up living there which would artificially inflate the statistics. Again if there is a large stock of social housing that would also affect the amount of unskilled workers applying for the same jobs and of course being unskilled affects how far you can commute in terms of cost, so yes it's entirely possible to have a job shortage in one area.

Social housing creates skewed demographics because people who are always going to need support are more likely to be housed there, schools on council estates have a higher percentage of children with SNs for example, most likely because disabled children are more likely to have an unemployed parent leaving them with a lower income or dependant on benefits depending on whether there are one or two parents living there.

Looking at wikipedia it looks like it's got a few areas that I think fit what I've just described - but I'm literally hundreds of miles away so I don't know really.

wubblybubbly · 26/01/2012 16:01

Thanks MrsDeVere

Every night before I go to sleep I try to think of at least 3 things I'm grateful for. They always revolve around my DH and DS, but I usually manage it. It helps me get up each day.

Despite that, I still wouldn't dream of telling any of my non terminal cancer friends to count their blessings, it's just crass and total lacking in any kind of understanding.

Hope you're okay right now.

jellybeans · 26/01/2012 15:57

YABU. I think it should be fine for one parent to be at home before and after school. I think it should be fine for a lone parent to work school hours only when their youngest is at school. I think it should be fine for them to volunteer instead. I think 90 mins commute is ridiculous. With extreme workfare, the benefit poor often become working poor and their kids have less parental time.

TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 15:57

Look everyone wants to have a go at me. please form a queue.

dandelionss · 26/01/2012 15:57

Another thing that isn't getting much media coverage at all is the Health and social care Bill on its way towards royal assent, which is likely to happen in the spring of 2012.
This is going to have a very major impact.The BMA and many many health service workers, are concerned that the legislation will lead to increasing commercialisation, fragmentation, and privatisation of the NHS.

Lesley33- the Conservatives are in very strong position by vitue of their so-called coalition government with the puppet Lib dem party.If they had won the election outright they would not have been strong enough to get all this through.Labour just don't have the numbers to form an effective opposition.If you want someone to blame , I'd start with the sell-out lib dems.Conservatives -well we all knew what they were, but lib dems I am disappointed with.

wordfactory · 26/01/2012 15:56

They were. But if they had actually listened to what voters were saying they might have actually managed it.

Any talk of reduction in the state, immigration or the deficit was silenced. And yet, this was what we were hearing on the door steps every fucking day.

The condescending attitude was breathtaking. Vulga's post pretty much summed it up what it was like. Little people with contrary opinions were made to feel like arseholes.

TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 15:53

you can tell by the language. explain to me why i should have a guilty conscience?

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 26/01/2012 15:53

Oh wubbly
Its so utterly fucking wanky crap that this website is full of crappy fucking threads like this that make your life feel that little bit worse.

I wish it wasnt. Its not fair.

It is sodding ironic that those preaching how they get through by thinking of those worse off than themselves are making those worse off than them feel like shit.

You know what? When my DD had cancer I DID used to think 'thank God' I dont live in Haiti and thank God we have access to pain relief'.

It didnt stop my life being almost unbearable because I knew how much worse it was for a mother thousands of miles away.

lesley33 · 26/01/2012 15:52

who were you referring to valar?

OP posts:
TheRealTillyMinto · 26/01/2012 15:51

the govt were just trying to stay in power werent they? this lot will be the same...different but actually the same.

wordfactory · 26/01/2012 15:51

Yup, can't sleep at night, me...

ValarMorghulis · 26/01/2012 15:50

funny that you assume i meant you.

I didn't state which "side" i was one. guilty conscience and all that

wordfactory · 26/01/2012 15:50

weight

Swipe left for the next trending thread