Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

I invoke the strawman.

Actually Fanny I take it all back. You are right of course, these extra children are a burden on the state. Something must be done!

But this is not a new problem. A fantastic solution was suggested as far back as the 18th century - amazingly relevant to our own times I think.

This idea would be a brilliant for preventing the children of poor people
from being a burden to their parents or country, and for making them beneficial to the public.

It would make a great new Conservative policy - what do you think? Have a read, it is but a modest proposal.

Fanny,

Where do you think the "welfare state's" money comes from? It is taxes and, predominantly, taxes on individuals, not large anonymous corporates. A total of 62% comes from income tax, national insurance and VAT combined. So, the welfare state helping someone is at a cost to someone else. There is no way you can duck this.

Of course, as a compassionate society, it is right that we provide a safety net and also right that we help families with children. However, all the above is up to a point. For most of the people on this thread, 4 children seems to be more than enough. How can you see it as fair that some people with decent incomes stop at two children when they ideally would like more, because they make the responsible decision that they cannot afford it yet, some on far lower incomes, think it is reasonable to be subsidised to have 4+. Of course there are hard luck stories and each one should be judged on its merit. On the other hand, losing some control over the use of the additional subsidy seems a fair price to pay for being given it. That is not fascism but realism. The idea of not taking any responsibility for one's life choices but expecting someone else to pay for them is just something the remainder of us are not willing to accept any more. That is the reason in recent surveys that 70%+ of people would like far more testing and control of where benefits (and tax credits) are going.

Neither.

I am walking away from this thread now because it is like wading in sand. I'll agree to disagree. Thanks folks.

eminem so you are left wing then? Or even a Socialist perhaps?

"raises my goat" - Jesus where did that come from...? Damn iPhone.

Yes, because everyone who thinks there should be no additional tax credits for over 4 children is a right-wing extremist with NO idea. Right.

ledkr apologies, I didn't mean to insult you personally, it just raises my goat when people come on MN with attitudes about claiming benefits. It's great that you stopped at 4, likewise, I did the same, we stopped at 3. I often say to DH I would have loved to try for a boy but we just can't afford it. I'm just fed up of hearing far right wing views from posters who actually have no idea how hard it is to live that way.

Ledkr - if you and your partner suffered redundancy within weeks of each other - would you cope with all your outgoings for 5 dc on the money for 4 - or would you struggle to meet all your finacial commitments? For how LONG could you cope if you and or your partner struggled to find new employment?

'Nobody is saying that people cannot have as many chidren as they like,merely that after a certain number they will not recieve any extra money.'

EXACTLY!

fanny sorry ive been out today but just read your reply to me.
That's a huge assumption that im a biggoted daily mail reader. I can assure you i am far from that.I too had to claim tax credits when my marriage broke down and was very gratefull for the help.
However,during that period i would not have decided to increase my family,thus expecting the state to help me further.

I recently had my 5th baby with my 2nd husband. This was a decision we made whilst taking into account our financial circumstances and allowing for a decreas in income due to mat leave and me going part time to care for the baby.

We have had to manage on less money with an additional child so im sure its reasonable for people on tax credits to exist on the same money.

Nobody is saying that people cannot have as many chidren as they like,merely that after a certain number they will not recieve any extra money.

If you believe its ok then thats fine but just because i disagree doesnt mean im a nasty person. I just have an opinion that differs from your own.

Moondog - please enlighten me as to the simple question....? Oh yes, cap tax Credits for more than 4 children. Brilliant idea.

I know, let's draw up a spreadsheet and everyone can decide what families deserve help and which ones are "spongers". Then you can look at each of the excess born children and decide whether they're worthy of extra CB or tax credits, you know, look
at their SATs and see if they look like future tax payers. And that's not fascist?

Oh 'ere we go.
Ranty pro-life stuff.

No she's not and moreover Fanny is choosing not to hear a very simple message.

'It's too complicated' No it isn't.

'You can't make children suffer' Who said anyone was planning to do that?

That is frothing at the mouth talk, not Harry's.

I am having no more dc because I have a level of education that is high enough to allow me to see that it is hard enough to bring up 4 dc well in the circumstances I find myself in. Not everyone I know HAS that level of education, to be able to see that having any more dc would be folly, no matter whether the state will pick up the tabor not. I want to be able to give my best to my dc, I can cope with 4 dc, give each of them the time they need, any more than that is beyond MY capabilities.

Yes, the money will only stop for children as yet unconceived - but that will not stop contraception accidents from happening. With the best will in the world, for most people (other meds excepted) , hormonal contraception is only 99% effective IF TAKEN PROPERLY - which means that for every 100 women on the pill, TAKING IT CORRECTLY, ONE WILL fall pregnant. Are they then meant to terminate if it against their morals / beliefs / wishes? I personally would ONLY terminate a pregnancy if I was raped - and possibly not even then. Did you know that at 9 weeks, a foetus has a central nervous system? And therefore, IMO can feel pain.

What do you say to those 1 in 100 women who fall pregnant despite using their hormonal contraception properly? Oh, you were unlucky, now you must terminate - what if they already have 4 dc, that were planned and born before this rule came in, then they had a contraceptive failure?

Again - Hormonal contraception is AT BEST 99% effective if taken properly, which means that 1 in every 100 women taking it properly will fall pg.

How many times do you have to be told that whilst you rant and spittle about fascists and killing off children and so on and so ridiculously forth.

Pot? Kettle? Black? Much?

You're positively frothing, Harry.

Because harry it makes no difference how many children we choose to have - once they are here there is sod all that can be done and my circumstances could also have involved another child. That's what I'm referring to, not how many children we have but how people can hit difficulties and the children are born and they weren't conceived to sponge off the state. I don't need to open my eyes "mate" - its the likes of you who think they have a solution. It's bollocks. It's too complicated and there are always going to be people who need assistance from the Welfare State. You can't make children suffer by plucking a magic number of appropriate children allowed per family then reduce the help.

fanny if you stopped to take a breather and actually read teh fecking thread you would be able to argue with more coherency.

It will not affect Hunty as she is having no more children. It will not affect you as you only have three.

The money will only stop for children as yet unconceived.
How many times do you have to be told that whilst you rant and spittle about fascists and killing off children and so on and so ridiculously forth.

But eminen it is about the likes of Hunty and personal situations like hers. how is that making it all about "her"? You want to stop people who work for a low income from having the choice to have more than 4 children. It's not ALWAYS a choice. I for instance was infertile, as was DH. DD1 was born as a result of frozen embryo transfer. 5 years later and after being told the chances of us having a child naturally were nil, I fell pregnant naturally. When DD2 was 6 months old, I had an a stomach bug and my pill must have been thrown back up. DD3 was conceived. We could afford these children at the time but when we suffered huge financial problems, we couldn't. What do you suggest we do? I can't afford my children but they're here. Everyone's story is different. Not everyone has the thought "oh I'll have X kids cos the State will provide for me".

'All Tax Credits are, in reality, is a business subsidy allowing employers to pay less than a LIVING WAGE to their employees. We are not talking about a living wage in India or China, but a living wage in the UK, before anyone starts that argument, that working for 2p a day and a handful of rice is fine for people in those countries.'

I've always thought this.
It's the price we pay for all the chap clothes and electrical goods anyone can have now.

lol school dinners have you seen what makes up a free school dinner at senior level !! 3 spuds a piece of meat one spoon of vedge and gravy plus either a drink or acookie

now while that may be ok for a infant child that would not go far for my 6 foot teenager

thats actually ignoring the fact that even though he is entitled to it .He can not eat it as he is g/f and dairy free as he can not tolerate due to having crohns .

i have to agree like hunty does not mean i am incapaerable of cooking a proper meal .Infact tend to cook from scratch

FFS, we get free birth control in this country, free sterilisation (except HuntyCat, of course), free terminations, extra top ups of cash per child, and people are still bitching about the possibility the top up of cash per child won't be increased after FOUR children and how awful this is.

Good grief, Hunty! It's not all about you and your personal situation and why you need to be dependent on the state forever so feel hard done by because of it.