Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

I think there is a certain arrogance and lsvk of consistency in saying that the state is short of money and therefore the very poorest should get less. But also saying thatch have so much money that I don't need my child benefit but I claim it anyway and then donate it too a cause that I deem worthy.

If you are so concerned about a lack of money in the state pot that you want to take children from their homes ( I know moondog does not suggest this but others have with similar views) or have a system of state sponsored sterilisation you should at least leave your child benefit in the system.

treasure?

OH Go ahead, I don't mind at al!

moondog - So we'll just assume that your original point that those over 40K didn't actually need the CB was based on no real experience whatsoever, and you were making the whole thing up. There''s a word for people like you but mumsnet policy won't allow me to use it. It begins with a 't'.

No.
I shan't.

Good point B&B, that's not bad at all with the universality thing with CB. What we don't want though is it going any further with income support etc so no stigma.

Can I also just add, re my previous point about vouchers, that I would be 100% happy to receive my child benefit in vouchers. I think if everyone received them in that way, we could be sure the money was being spent on the kids, and there would be no stigma attached to them at all, as everyone would have them.

moondog - not clear why the fact that you personally are so rich you don't need your child benefit means that everyone else who earns over 40K doesn't need their child benefit either.

Please share with us precisely what you earn, how many children you have and how much child benefit you receive - we can then analyse the figures to see whether we too are really just ridiculous spendthrifts who can learn from your fabulous economies - or whether you actually earn waaaay more than us and therefore don't have a ruddy clue what our experience is like.

Ta.

WI, you jump to conclusions somewhat.
I never told you what I do with it.

The whole "Are only the rich allowed to have large families?" is a stupid argument. Utterly stupid.

The real question is where is our government money best spent? And in current times (rightly or wrongly) there's a real apathy towards those families which have 5+ kids, demand the council put them up in a large house and take home £40k+ (All tax free) in benefits. Now those numbers are mercifully small but it rightly gets on many people's nerves.

No-one is saying you can't have a large family. Even now when the planet is vastly overpopulated, only one government in the world has a child policy. Even that's only in certain areas and it's not a government personally I'd like to live under.

The point I'm trying to make is that who says the government must pay for your decision to have a child? Surely we should support ourselves and our families first and foremost?

Yes, I accept that people fall on hard times. And rightly, the government should do what it can to help in those situations. But I also have a responsibility to minimise my impact on others too. So for example if I lost my job (and that's looking a definite possibility at the moment) then what I'm arguing is that I'd enter the system and get whatever benefits I am entitled to. My responsibility is then not to go on and have another child and my goal is to get myself back into work ASAP.

Now shit happens and yes my partner could get pregnant. Well that's hardly the government's fault is it? Why should I now expect more money? Now ok...maybe you can say well it's hard isn't it and the government should help out more. Well ok....mistakes happen. But what about those small minority who then have another....and another....and another?

Where are their responsibilities? They're quick to claim their entitlements but slow to live up to their responsibilities.

Like I said, those numbers are thankfully small but it doesn't mean it's right.

But Moondog, you always had the option to opt out. Why didn't you take it?

I think it is utterly ridiculus that people who are as well paid as myself and my dh receive child benefit and welcome its cessation to people like us.

I'm not a politician, I have no idea how to change the benefits system, likewise the majority on here don't. Its too complex and ultimately, benefits are for children and we can't sift the good parents from the bad.

The comment re who pays people working tax credits when they work is the one that got my goat. Tax credits are a subsidiary for people on LOW INCOME. Yet again MN members are under the impression that we're all on six figure salaries.

i guess it depends how many children the government want people to have. With the former cb option obviously they were encouraging people to have more, but now i think larger families are discouraged - unless you are rich!

"it was set up to help genuine people who genuinely don't have another option"

When the forerunner of CB was introduced, it was set up only for second and subsequent children. Are you advocating a return to that?

As we know, a benefits system will be abused but it was set up to help genuine people who genuinely don't have another option. We can't handpick which families deserve it more than others.

We have to be grateful that we live in a democratic society and we choose our leaders and don't suffer under the reign of Tyrants. We pay our taxes and we may not like where they go, but that's life.

We can't "cap" the quantity of children people have, we could force people to work but where are the jobs for uneducated individuals? We have to look after the poor, it's the morally correct thing to do, we weren't all born lucky and have parents who led us in the right direction, helped us get the correct education. Some people just don't know any better. But to some on MN they are the underclass. Makes me feel queasy.

By the way I am none of the above, I'm educated and from a well educated family and don't live off benefits but what I do know is that when DH's business collapsed as a result of the bankers fuck ups, we had to claim Tax Credits to feed our children. I loathe anyone who would defiantly stand up and decide that to take that safety net away from families who have no other choice just because of the few that abuse it.

I am not sure that anyone on here thinks that benefits should be paid to allow the poor to have unlimited children . I haven't seen anyone advocate that on this thread, however, I have seen the phrase "safety net" mentioned more than once.

Two different things B&B.

What do those on here who think that benefits should be paid to allow the poor to have unlimited children feel about the ending of child benefit for the 'wealthy' (excuse me while I split my sides) - I assume you're all v against it as it's the only support those parents will get for those children. There's certainly no way most on 40K could afford 4 kids - despite supposedly being 'rich'. There is something rotten in the state of Denmark England if only the 'poor' and the v rich can afford 4= kids.

I think Iggly is making a point about what the frothers from the Daily Nazi get annoyed about (undeserving getting their taxes) and what they overlook (tax dodgers) rather than everyone, hence the "some people".

I must not be as pissed as I though I was. .

'But some people cannot bear the idea of underserving sorts getting their taxes. Yet don't bat an eyelid at pensioners getting winter fuel payments'

'Yet we don't bat an eyelid at the government selling the best boys of northern rock and keeping the toxic debt. Or the proposals to cut the taxes for the super rich, as if they need more handouts. Or the fact that rich pensioners get a winter fuel allowance - no means testing there.'

I never MN drunk.
Very bad idea.
I wouldn't be able to operate the keyboard in any case.

WTF does that means Moondog? How does Iggly know who gets angry about what, or have you been drinking my wine?

You love telling us who gets cross or angry about certain issues don't you Iggly?
All nicely worked out in your little plan.

I'm now going to go to bed! Otherwise I won't sleep for

I think plenty can be done to reduce the admin costs of the welfare state- universality is the main thing really, which is why CB is so cheap to administer compared the tax credit madness.
But some people cannot bear the idea of underserving sorts getting their taxes. Yet don't bat an eyelid at pensioners getting winter fuel payments - when some of those would have been undeserving before they hit retirement age.