Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

I agree EminenceGrise.

And yes, I AM more circumspect about the men I mix with - it is usually their PARTNERS I mix with, or even, in fact, their EX-PARTNERS.

MY personal choice would have been to be sterilised when I had 2 dc (MUCH as I love Ds2 and DS3). I agree with PREVENTION of pregnancy - but I do NOT agree with abortion as a form of contraception.

My OWN standards are what is making me say no to dates, and to make sure that I do not embark on a new relationship before I have been sterilised, given the problems I have with contraception. This is MY way of ensuring that I don't have any more accidents. But it is a BLOODY LONELY choice to have to make when I am only 30yo, and many people my age just wouldn't become celibate. And latex-free condoms are NOT given out by the NHS any longer. They are very expensive.

And, as an aside - what about people in abusive relationships who have been FORCED to have sex without contraception? I have a friend who has 4 dc because of an abusive relationship like this - and she had 7 terminations behind his back. It was after the 7th one that she finally managed to get a refuge that had space for all 4 of her dc...Should SHE not get help because she has a large family?

Nothing to do with being poor at all. We're utterly brassic and always have been. That's why we make sure we don't have any more children.

I also make my children aware that if they fall pregnant, they need to find somewhere else to live. I'm not doing this again. Ever.

That's got nothing to do with being poor and everything to do with being stupid.

'Alouisee - I DO know that my PCT WOULDN'T send my Ex-H for a sterilisation after DS1 because he only had one dc. I also have 2 friends, one who has 3 dc, one who has 4 dc, who have LEFT their partners because their partners REFUSED to have a vasectomy because "No-one is messing with my bits".'

It's pretty easy to contest the PCT on this and women can get sterilised, too.

My husband had the snip AND we use another form of contraception. No accidents. Never had any accidents in 32 years because I knew very well that if I got pregnant, I was on my own accepting whatever it was the father was going to be forced to pay.

I'll bet every man you know doesn't come from a background where being ABLE to father dc 'makes them a man', and taking away that ability makes them 'less of a man'. Which a lot of the poorer men I meet do.

Alouisee - I DO know that my PCT WOULDN'T send my Ex-H for a sterilisation after DS1 because he only had one dc. I also have 2 friends, one who has 3 dc, one who has 4 dc, who have LEFT their partners because their partners REFUSED to have a vasectomy because "No-one is messing with my bits".

And, IMO as the money the Government gives you is classed as the 'minimum amount needed to live off', it is NOT that benefits should be dropped, more that Minimum wage should be RAISED to meet the national 'average' wage. Which is at a level that MOST people on MN would struggle to live off - National 'average' wage is £26K pa before tax. National MINIMUM wage is £11.8K before tax. LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT WOULD STILL BE A LOW WAGE FFS.

And how are people SUPPOSED to get a job paying better than NMW when even the not-so-thick ones have often been totally failed by the education system? The main reason that the poverty cycle continues is because if the parents were educated at a sink school, and their dc go there too, they have little chance to break free. Getting EVERY school to be an 'outstanding' school is the key IMO.

I'm quite sure that a Country like Germany DOESN'T have such marked differences in the quality of the schools that the UK does. That's the problem IMO, the inequality in the education system in the UK.

And while my DD will be lucky to get a NMW job - my 9yo DS1 is doing very well at school, is going to sit the 11+, wants to go to the Grammar school, and has ambitions of becoming either an oncologist or a neurologist. They have seen me work 60 hour weeks despite being a Lone parent with disabilities in the past, they have seen my Ex-P work long hours for low pay, they are not short of 'working' role models.

I have not been out of work for the whole time I have been a lone parent - in 13 years I have worked for 7 of them. But, at times, due to redundancy, due to disability, due to my caring responsibilities for DD, due to being a SAHP, I HAVE been out of work. Currently I am out of work on benefits, and I am unable to work due to lack of SN childcare for my DD. And I HAVE tried, recently. I worked for 3 weeks in September, but DD's SN childminder gave me notice ON MY FIRST DAY as she was used to 3yo's with asd, not 13yo's that can't be strapped into a pram when they are having a meltdown...

'Odd too, don't you think that so many people on benefits have unplanned pregnancies/problems with contraception/new partners and new babies etc etc.'

There does seem to be a lot of this. There are some threads on here now where you rather think, 'Didn't you think of this before you decided to go through with the pregnancy/not double up on contraception?'

I grew up in a place without extensive welfare, and never met men who didn't use condoms or women who didn't use the pill and then tell the man to use a condom, too, because teh consequences of having a baby meant you really did have to pay for it, all of it.

Hunty you appear to know the system inside out. Wrt to your comment about "And a vasectomy is all well and good - but most men in my area WON'T have a vasectomy, and the PCT won't do it unless the man has at least 2 living dc."

That is absolute rubbish, I know that as I live in your area and every man I know with children has had a vasectomy, we also had a pioneering surgeon who introduced the concept of Laser Vasectomies and ran a very busy and succesful clinic while also running a GP practice. She was also very amenable about donating free vasectomies if a student could be present.

So from that I can only assume you are spouting a lot of nonsense or you should really be more circumspect about the men you mix with and certainly the ones you allow to impregnate you.

As HarryHillatemyGoldfish said every baby born in Britain today is through choice. I am also amazed that people I know who are struggling don't have "accidents" because they make bloody certain they don't have them.

As for my "sanitised" view of the world, I prefer to call it personal standards.

well you obviously shouldnt have got in to such crap relationships then hunty i mean that was your fault after all? oh wait no you cant tell that someone is going to turn out to be a bastard can you, its bad luck!

funny how those that havent had such bad luck are the ones to try and tell those that do what they are/have been doing wrong and that its their own fault...

Fuck sake, scarletsmummy - NOT everyone CAN earn more than minimum wage. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much competition FOR minimum wage jobs. What do you propose someone like my DD who has SN that have been FAILED by the education system do to earn more than NMW? She will be LUCKY, frankly, to GET a NMW job.

Does that mean she should never have any dc? Because THAT IS straying into Eugenics...

OK, so if 'every baby is a choice' does that mean that you can chose to have an abortion?

What if, like me, you WERE IN long term-relationships - My first dc, I had been with her father for over a year, had unplanned pg due to contraception failure. DS1 I was MARRIED at the time, then I discovered that Ex-H was an abusive, cheating wankstain. DS2 and DS3 I was in a long-term relationship - DS2 is 8yo, DS3 is 9mo, so over 7yrs my contraception WORKED for. Then Ex-P chose to fuck off, after 9 years. . Yes, I am feckless and have purposely popped out baby after baybee for da money, innit. .

So, despite the fact that I have had miscarriages and a stillbirth in the past, and the fact that my Ex-P was working FT when we had our youngest 2 dc - I should have KILLED my DS3 by having an abortion. Even though I was not in posession of a crystal ball that would tell me that my partner of 9 years was going to walk out? And, in fact, he didn't walk out until DS3 was 4mo - was I meant to commit infanticide then? Or do I have to accept that I have 4 dc on benefits, and to try to minimise my chances of having any more by not getting into a new relationship until my PCT agrees to BLOODY STERILISE ME? Which is what I AM doing BTW - staying single until I have been sterilised. But WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO?

Why SHOULD I have to stay lonely every night, just because I am 'too young' to be sterilised, even though I have been asking since my second dc was born nearly 10 years ago? Why SHOULD I turn down dates, just because I am poor?

yeah cardboard boxes and strap the extra carseat onto the roof of the car, sure that would be fine

not touchwood i wont get pregnant, we are being careful on the rare occasion we actually have enough energy to have sex!

Can't you find a few big cardboard boxes 4mad?

I was using an extreme example to make the obvious point that contraception of every kind is actually unreliable HTH

and we use condoms as we cant use hormonal contraception, odly enough after having pnp caused my a hormonal imbalance and having to have an emergeancy mri as they thought a i had abrain tumour to cause the imbalance. then struggling to get well again i am not willing to risk my mh by using hormonal contraceptives. hopefully as we use the condoms correctly and a baby that still isnt sleeping through at 11mths old, means that sex doesnt happen all that often, but if we did get pregnant then i would be in one hell of conundrum as i dont think i could go through with an abortion, neither does dp (and it would be partly his decision as well) but we dont have enough space in the house/car for another and cant afford to move etc.

julia not exactly groundbreakingly common is it?

Straw man argument if ever I saw one!

babies are a choice yes, unless you end up with twins, you cant choose that, but what happens after you have them isnt always a choice, loss of jobs, long term illness etc none of these are things that people actively choose.

Quite apart from the love of eugenics, even if you wanted to enforce this insane plan, you should bear in mind that there have been cases of women who've had hysterectomies going on to give birth. It is possible if ovaries are not removed; embryo can develop on eg liver and be delivered by CS.
So blame for not using contraception is misplaced.

hunty . In Britain today, every baby is a choice.

It's odd, isn;t it, how the vast majority with four or more children ar either 1) reasonably well off or 2) On benefits of some description.

The vast, VAST majority of those in the middle restrict their families to two or thre eor less. Because they can't afford anymore.

Odd too, don't you think that so many people on benefits have unplanned pregnancies/problems with contraception/new partners and new babies etc etc.

When you live in a system that actively rewards you to have more kids, well, you get what we all see around us and have to live with and pay for .

Alouisee - No Child benefits for the children of feckelss fathers. WHAT a way to punish the children for the sins of their fathers. What if you are NOT AWARE of the dc that your current partner is NOT paying for? What if he (Like my DD's father) manages to get two women pregnant at the same time, with neither woman being aware of the other? What if he LIES and tells you he has no dc.

WHY should the CHILDREN in those situations suffer? There is already no maintenance being paid for them, if there is then no state benefits being paid for them either, and the mother is unable to find work - should she abort, or let her dc starve?

FFS, Alouisee, I KNOW you have some pretty sanitised views of the world, but seriously? You would willingly watch an unemployed Lone parent, sitting on the street in front of you, begging you for a slice of bread to feed their dc, and you would respond with "NO, you shouldn't have had a child with someone who walked away from you / had other dc since he was with you that he has also refused to pay for / cheated on you / abused you - You are the scum of the earth, no go away and starve quietly"???!!!

Totally agree with what scarletts said, my dsil has just had a baby, it wasn't planned but never mind these things happen. neither of them work yet they both smoke, both have phone contracts, sky plus etc. Benefits should not be maintaining that, they are all luxuries.

And teenswhodhavethem - I disagree with the CSA policy WRT CTC - been there before, it's the most stupid crappy rule EVER, to take away what is classed as a payment for ONE set of dc to make sure they are not below the poverty line to give to another set - who may not even BE entitled to CTC as a family because the RP's new partner earns too much...

Mumblechum1 - I have been totally unable to get any sort of life insurance since my third dc was 2 weeks old, and I was diagnosed with epilepsy. Even when I was working FT (for NMW). Because the premiums when you have got uncontrolled epilepsy were more than half my monthly wages after tax. I have had no life insurance for 8 years now. Eating is more important.