Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

4madboys - i agree with your comments about self esteem, education and ambition. one way of stopping the endless cycle of this would be to reduce the number of children that bad parents have. Contraceptive implants for anyone on benefits with 2 children or more would be a start. Unless its shown to be against their religion and then they would have to demonstrate regular church attendance, for example

This could be combined with pre and post school clubs where the kids were fed properly and given good role models including tips on not getting into abusive relationships. If a parent can't afford breakfast for a child surely this is because they drink/smoke/inject all the benefits money and don't care a dam for the child...how much is a cheap loaf of bread?

I don't agree that our education system is wholescale crap but I do agree the schools that serve our most vulerable children are often found wanting - perhaps not surprisingly as that is a difficult environment in which to work.

I think sure start was aiming to deal with these problems from a youg age , however those people who needs those services the most are the mos reluctant to attend. So you have resources set up for one client base but used by another.

I consider myself very lucky that there were schemes like surestart around to help me when I hit rock bottom. Yes it cost the tax payer money but it was an investment worth paying. Even if you just want to look in economic terms it is cheaper to help me in the short term than put my dd in care. Because of the support I was given I made the leap within just over five years from someone on benefits to HRT. I suspect my dd will also do very well in life, because of the support I was given. Personally I think you cannot put a price on the fact that schemes like sure start managed to "fix" my family.

"I'm sure we'll hear all about 'What if it's rape?' in response to that. I've been raped as well. The vast majority of the time, it's not rape, it's not caring enough about yourself to bother." fucking hell of all the horrible comments to read on mn! another woman saying that most rapes arent actually rapes its that the women having looked after themselves properly!!

and harryhill i think hunty has said she WAS using contraception each time she got pregnant, it didnt work!!

and yes self esteem and ambition and education has a huge amount to do with it, but how do you start to put that right? self confidence starts forming at a very young age and a lot can happen in a childs life to damage that, and our education system is crap, there are too many failing or 'adequate' schools and its the poor that suffer from this, not those who move to get their kids in a good school or who go private, but those that cant move or cant afford private education. its not their fault that the school system is failing them and their children.

but withdrawring benefits isnt going to stop this problem, it needs targeted reform and support for children from poor back grounds, a lot of these people are no more stupid than you and i but they haven had the opportunities and support that others have had.

Everything alouise and eminence have said I agree with.

Too stupid/manly to get the snip? Fine. But don't expect me to fund your offspring.
Sleeping ( through choice) with a man too stupid/manly to get the snip? Fine. But don't expect me to fund your offspring.

You know, I managed to avoid having children until I was married, secure, earning and in my thirties. All my friends seemed to have done pretty much the same.

Someone very wise once said that ambition is the greatest contraception.
Never has that rung more true.
NOTHING and I mean NOTHING would have made me have a child at 18/19/20 etc. A life on benefits in a council flat with an uncommitted/feckless/useless/unfaithful partner was not a life I was going to choose. And I am not alone.
It is not about luck always but self esteem and choice.

I think we need to empower women to note the warning signs, I am not sure how that can happen but it needs to.

I can now see looking back at my abusive relationship that it was always going to happen. The warning signs are like huge belisha beacons hovering over my past.

However being naive, desperate to escape an abusive family and having no experience of positive relationships I managed to either ignore or not see the warning signs. I take some responsibility for that, I made stupid choices despite being educated in terms of academia but not life.

As a mother I have instilled into my daughter the need for self respect, to surround herself with people that respect her and make her feel good about herself and to take shit from no one. Most importantly my dd feels that she is a valuable person. I was raised to think I was a useless shit destined for a life of further shit.

That's funny Hunty because I distinctly remember you with your old name saying that you were fed up because you only had one close friend.

FGS, yes, of course, all these 'accidental' pregnancies resulting in over 4 kids it's abusive, rape, etc. It's someone else's fault, yep, absolutely, so the world and his wife should pay for that, forever.

NOT.

Ain't gonna happen.

No Warning Signs of Abusive Men when any of us were at school and I'm certainly not "better educated".

Unfortunately, Alouisee, I wish I was exaggerating or lying. I have a lot of friends, and a lot of people seem to confide in me, and ask me for advice on what to do, as they know I have personal experience of situations like this. And are you saying that to have a large circle of friends, from ALL walks of life is unusual? I have a HUGE circle of friends and acquaintances, all of whom I spend time with socialising, from the couples where the DH works in the financial sector in London and the DW is a GP, to the ones that are unemployed living in temporary accommodation as they have just left the refuge.

Because you often don't KNOW that they are feckless to start with. Do feckless men come with a flashing neon sign above their head? How long should you be in a relationship for before you TTC? Because I know people that have been with their partners for 10 years, their DP's/DH's seemed perfectly respectable - until their DP's/DW's became pg, or until the wedding night. A LOT of men change after you have got married, or when you fall pg. You only have to look at DV statistics to see this. It's EASY for better educated women to see warning signs of an abusive man - not so easy for someone who has grown up seeing an abusive relationship between their PARENTS, and has not been well educated on these issues at school either. They certainly didn't do a class called 'Warning signs of abusive men' when I was at school!

And, BTW - ALL my dc have been conceived whilst I have been using some form of contraception, before you start accusing ME of being reckless. DD - pill AND condom AND MAP. DS1 - Depo injection. DS2 - Mirena Coil (he came out holding it). DS3 - Condoms AND implant. . Abstinence IS my only effective contraceptive choice at present.

Most people don't have 12 close friends let alone 12 friends who were forced into sex and 7 abortions?

Either you're exaggerating to make a point or you're lying.

So, eminencegrise - do you disagree that there are a LOT of relationships where the woman is forced to have sex, or raped? Because I know of at least 12 of my friends, off the top of my head, who have been in relationships, either now or in the past, where they have been forced to have sex against their will. Happily, 11 of those 12 friends are now OUT of their abusive relationships - but how can you say that 'it's not rape, it's not caring enough about yourself to bother.'. They cared enough to ultimately get OUT of those relationships in the end. Does it mean that because they didn't 'care enough about themselves to bother.' that THEY are responsible for the fact that they were forced into having sex that they didn't want, and was often without contraception?

Well why would you want to sleep with and possibly conceive a child with a man who is "Immoral, feckless or poorly thought out" ?

I know - but I STILL don't think it's 'stupid'. Yes, it is immoral, feckless, poorly thought out, possibly due to low intelligence, possibly due to poor education, possibly due to a poor upbringing - but they are not 'stupid'.

Stupid in my eyes is an insult, not a descriptive word.

It would be like me saying that these men are dickheads of the highest order. They may be, but insults have no place in a reasoned discussion, surely?

Hmm, well, I certainly did my share of dating and sleeping around. What would I have said to a man who didn't use a condom? 'Goodbye'. Why? Because I knew where I was there would be no help if I got pregnant or even picked up a disease.

I'm sure we'll hear all about 'What if it's rape?' in response to that. I've been raped as well. The vast majority of the time, it's not rape, it's not caring enough about yourself to bother.

Well, they've been warned then. The changes are coming. Start making provision now or if not there will be consequences. We're talking about no additional monies for over 4 children, not no more benefits at all.

And I won't have a different opinion even if I suddenly got a job that put me in the highest tax bracket - I still wouldn't want to take money away from genuine claimants, on the offchance that I would stop ONE family 'scrounging'. I didn't have a different opinion when both Ex-P and I were working FT, about £1 a month over the TC limit, that left us worse off than me being a SAHP / both on benefits - because at the time we WERE both able to work FT. And we were both paying tax.

Yes, I find the condoms thing very interesting too, presumably you've been out on a few dates with these men? I'm sure they wouldn't object to buying latex free condoms instead of normal ones.

Hunty, I did not call you stupid, merely the men who think fathering a child is the be all and end all of manhood.

Yes, and I agree UP TO A POINT. While I am trying my best to make sure that I do not have any more dc, I do not want to see the CHILDREN of other people who DON'T do their best to ensure that they do not have any more dc to SUFFER.

I can understand people's opinion when I see one or two families living on the estate I live on - but with the vast majority of the unemployed families I see, there are extenuating circumstances as to WHY they are in that position. So THEY will probably be made to suffer because of the minority of people who DO abuse the system.

K, then, Hunty, tough for you then. Buy some latex free condoms or don't have sex till they do it.

I don't see where your own personal situation is a reason why everyone should pay for people having more than 4 children.

Because to me, having more than that when you know you can't afford it without significant government top ups is feckless.

Sorry, missed out quotation marks.

'and many people my age just wouldn't become celibate. And latex-free condoms are NOT given out by the NHS any longer. They are very expensive. '

I mean, here's a thought, BUY YOUR OWN CONDOMS or say NO to sex till you have the money for them? Personal responsibility, imagine that?

OK, eminencegrise - I have spent 10 years fighting to be allowed to be sterilised, I have written appeal letters to the PCT and lost on appeal (I was 28 with 3 dc, and a stillbirth as well at that point, AND I have additional health problems that makes pregnancy difficult, AND hereditory disabilities in my family too). I was still turned down, and told to come back when I was 34.

I have requested sterilisation since having 9mo DS3 too - I was referred to the Gynae Consultant, who took one look at my age, and refused me again.

'Stupid'? Are you resorting to insults now, Alouisee? Poorly educated, possibly. With Learning difficulties, possibly, but 'stupid'?

and many people my age just wouldn't become celibate. And latex-free condoms are NOT given out by the NHS any longer. They are very expensive.

So we're all supposed to pay for that forever why?

The move is for no more, additional benefits for over 4 children, so if you have more than that, you'll need to budget accordingly, not no benefits at all.

That's called closing the stable door after the horse has bolted Hunty!