Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

Rather than offer IVF to women who can't conceive naturally over the age of 37, these women could be given the excess children of the profligate. I don't see why the taxpayer should fund treatments for women who wanted to cheat their biological clocks, especially when there are lots of spare children out there.

Nobody can ever guarantee that they won't need help from the State, so the proposal implies to me that anyone having more than 4 children should be viewed as doing something worthy of disapproval.

I wonder what people would think of the next logical steps along the line: automatically removing excess children from their parents to be put up for adoption; and sterilising repeat offenders?

Oh, and wait until you are no longer a child yourself .

Yunno, how difficult is it really to try to live by a few simple guidelines with regard to having children.

Like, wait until you are in a loving, secure relationship with a decent partner.

Wait until one or both of you is working.

Wait until you have a home .

I can't think of anything good that Gordy did, oh except keep us out of the Godforsaken Euro.

:o Poor Moondog - as if :o

As always these threads degenerate into a mix of bizarre personal anecodote (I've got 18 children all conceived in context of loving relationship but in view of my exceedingly rare medical conditions I repatedly became pregnant despite crossing my legs/insisting on 3 condoms at a time/standing on my head. Then my 'partner' turned into a gibbering idiot overnight and left!!') and self pitying v professional victim playing ('I'm only a frail downtrodden woman who has had such a raw deal in life I didn't recognise that my 'partner' who had no job, a drug habit and four different children by three different women was a fuckwit')

Pathetic.

That's the new system though Alouisee.

Doesn't matter how much your ex gives you every month, you are still entitled to full single parent benefits.

Good ole Gordy!

I know one divorcee who claims benefits. Apparently the couple of grandmoney she receives from her exh is "for the children" so she signs on AND gets housing benefit despite her exh owning (mortgaged) a property which he rents out.

That needs sorting out. I can't bring myself to spend too much time with her at the moment as she thinks it is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

Off topic again) I think we all hope we've found a responsible partner, especially those of us who have given up paid employment to care for children full-time. It's still a massive gamble, one which often doesn't pay off, sadly. Being dependent on another person can unfortunately leave you just as vulnerable as being dependent on the state.

That's just simply not true for most women I know.

If my DH left, not only do I have 50% share in considerable assets but he would pay for all of his children. I know this absolutely unless he has had a lobotomy in secret.
I would not be eligible for a penny of state benefits.

agree yourmother - one of the reasons i've always worked....that and the fact that my husband's job is contract based and therefore not very reliable. BUT you are off topic with this...because we are talking about people already on benefits who can't support themselves limiting their reproduction

Oh, okay, so being of the opinion 'No additional tax credits after 4 kids' is lofty.

Yes, suppose I am veering off-topic.

Just hate to see lofty attitudes towards those on benefits when it could happen to any of us, especially in this climate, redundancies, businesses failing, something the meeeja seem to forget in their latest campaign.

(Off topic again) I think we all hope we've found a responsible partner, especially those of us who have given up paid employment to care for children full-time. It's still a massive gamble, one which often doesn't pay off, sadly. Being dependent on another person can unfortunately leave you just as vulnerable as being dependent on the state.

We'd have to do what every other divorced couple do. As in sell the house, liquidate or split any assets and come to an arrangement about child support.

How that is relevant to this thread is beyond me.

'I wonder how some of the posters moralising here about large families on benefits would manage if their husbands walked out...'

Well, considering this thread is about no FURTHER tax credits beyond FOUR children and not 'No benefits anymore ever', I fail to see the juxtaposition between this sentence and the thread topic.

And why is it that the husband walks out and the person automatically goes on full state benefit? To me, that's a real flaw in the system, that a person can leave the family he/she created and the state has to pick up the entire tab. But that's a whole other topic, I suppose.

4madboys - someone who has more children when they can't support the ones they already have, would be one way to spot a bad parent.

yourmother - like you i would manage fine as i could still support mine and i like to think that as i chose a responsible father he would support them even if he did leave. i see you have stopped at 2 kids. plus we are talking here about people who already are on benefits having more children...not people who find themselves in a difficult situation once they have had them...so your example isn't relevant.

Hmmm, HuntyCat normally has an opinion on that. Wonder why she's left the thread

I wonder how some of the posters moralising here about large families on benefits would manage if their husbands walked out...

I'm lucky in that if mine ever shagged the proverbial secretary and ran for the hills I could still support my two children without state help but I recognise that. Lucky. I can still sympathise with those who find themselves in a bad situation and am under no illusions that no matter how strong my marriage, well-paid my job, it could happen to me too. There but for the grace of God etc.

'If people don't have that common sense and have a child whose needs they cant meet then maybe the best thing for everybody is a long term contraceptive implant '

Awaits chorus of how some people can't use long-term contraception, are you suggesting sterilising some people yadda yadda yadda.

Surely to most people it is plain common sense to hold off having children until you can house, clothe and feed them. If people don't have that common sense and have a child whose needs they cant meet then maybe the best thing for everybody is a long term contraceptive implant until they are able to rectify that situation.

If doctors get funding for immunising babies I see no reason why they can't be incentivised to push contraception.

Wrt to who makes that decision I'm happy to apply for the job.

It's actually simple.

No additional money for more than four children for those as yet not conceived.

So yunno, you can choose.

4madboys would that be the Evil Tory policy of the Pupil premium? Whereby every child on free school meals brings in £500 a year? A policy which effectively punishes the children of working parents by depriving them of thousands of pounds in schools which the children of non working parents enjoy?

'you just cannot introduce a policy that STOPS people having children just because we dont think they are the right sort of parents.'

You can make a policy that says, no additional benefits monies after 4 kids and people cut their cloth accordingly.

and how do you decide who is a 'bad' parent then dreaming that is a riddiculous idea, how about helping them and supporting them to become better parents, how about we target money to those areas instead of getting rid of surestart centres, help those schools that need support because they have high numbers of children with a difficult background. oh no lets just take away their right to reproduce!! you do realise where policies like that lead, well they are bad parents so they cant have anymore, they wont be good parents in the first place lets not let them have children. they arent smart enough, well educated enough so they cant have children etc.

you just cannot introduce a policy that STOPS people having children just because we dont think they are the right sort of parents.

some of the parents i know that love their children the most arent ideal parents but they are trying their best against a difficult background of not having good parents themselves and struggling with poverty and lack of education themselves, but to tell them they cant have any more children once they have 2, cos thats the 'magic' number... eugenics here we come.

'another woman saying that most rapes arent actually rapes its that the women having looked after themselves properly!!

Well, that's not what I meant. I mean the vast majority of the time, all these 'accidental' pregnancies are because people arent' as careful as they can be with birth control.

And I stand by that.

And it's not about withdrawing benefits, it's about no further benefits after FOUR kids.

I agee with that, too.