Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Politics

Cap child tax credit after four children, says MP

638 replies

SardineQueen · 18/11/2011 15:39

here

One of nadine's friends!

I'm not surprised to see this from a conservative MP, as ever I think this sort of thing is a terrible idea - children don't choose to be born and by restricting benefits in this way you are punishing the children for something you disapprove of the parents doing. And as I understand it the number of people with no work ever and loads of children is actually very low? So this sort of policy doesn't actually save much money at all. Can't remember where I saw that though.

I am sure there will be some who disagree. I thought that people who post here might be interested anyway.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
madhatter80 · 31/12/2011 18:23

I think they should cap it at 2 children which is the replacement rate . People should have more children if they want as long as they are prepared to pay for them.

breadandbutterfly · 25/11/2011 22:06

Oh, fair enough then.

Bloody men.

CardyMow · 25/11/2011 18:22

Breadandbutterfly - We are apart because he is emotionally abusive when we are in a relationship. He treated me like a slave, refused to do anything around the house, refused to even look after the baby so that I could have a bath, call me names, and much much more. However - now we are apart, I can appreciate the better side of him, and the fact that he does his best to financially support his dc, as I have also seen the other side of it from my Ex-H. Wouldn't make me get back with him in a million years though - as he'd just treat me the same way he did before.

breadandbutterfly · 25/11/2011 17:32

dreamingofsun - I hope I don't feel inherently superior to anyone - we're all different, and have different skills etc. I don't claim I'd like those who choose to live on the dole at my expense or wish to be friends with them (although in some cases they come from backgrounds/homes where they've ever had any encouragement/support to succeed in the world of work - I know how lucky I have been in terms of supportive family, excellent schooling - and yet how hard I find it financially for all that - so can appreciate that others without my advantages might well be finding it hard) - but there is something rather uber-race about this whole superiority thing that makes my skin crawl, sorry.

breadandbutterfly · 25/11/2011 17:28

Maybe silly question, HuntyCat, but how come you and nice exP are not together, as you speak quite highly of him, and are both struggling on your own?

Not relevant to thread, I know...

CardyMow · 25/11/2011 16:36

But, how do fathers on NMW SUPPORT their dc? You take away 15% of their earnings after tax, for one dc...and they can't afford a roof over their head. Ex-P (DS2 and DS3's dad) works for a bit more than NMW (he gets £16.8K before tax, so about £5K pa MORE than NMW). CSA take 20% of his income to support his two dc. That works out to £55 a week. For TWO DC. Which is LESS than the Tax Credits for those dc.

If workers weren't paid such a derisible amount - then maybe more fathers would be ABLE to support their dc to the extent that their ex's wouldn't need to rely on the state.

Can you imagine how little money my Ex-P is left with after he has paid his maintenance? Then he has to try to pay to keep a roof over his own head.

Yes, there ARE feckless fathers out there, my Ex-H is one of them - but a lot of the time, the reason many give up work is because paying out 15-20% of their income when they are on NMW or not much more means that they cannot EAT themselves.

While I don't condone it, having seen my Ex-P's outgoings (and the 2 dc we have together are his only dc, and he works FT) there is NO WAY he can afford to eat more than one basic meal a day after paying his maintenance to me if he wants to keep his roof over his head - which is only a room in a houseshare.

Not ALL absent parents are feckless fathers. Some are, some aren't, some just want to be able to support their dc from a previous relationship and EAT as well...

dreamingofsun · 25/11/2011 13:38

breadandbutter - i feel inherently superior to someone that has never tried to do their best and can't be bothered to work and is longterm unemployed as a result. (I'm not talking about ST unemployed or disabled here or people with caring responsibilities for disabled children). I also feel superior to anyone who doesn't do the best they can for their children.

absolutely agree with your comments about the dads - they are much more their responsibility (or should be) than mine

breadandbutterfly · 25/11/2011 13:31

larry - people like the ones you describe annoy the hell out of me too.

BUT I am with HuntyCat that it's not their kids fault - they didn't ask to be born and don't deserve to starve because their parents are feckless tossers. Further up the thread I suggested making more benefits paid in vouchers as a a partial solution - to ensure the money was spent on the kids. I also said I'd be happy if all child benefit (including my own) was paid in this way - after all, that is supposed to be spent on the kids too - then vouchers would cease to have any stigma attached, as everyone would have them.

I do feel concerned that there has been too much language in this thread suggesting that those on benefits are inherently inferior or undeserving - as HuntyCat's example shows, the reverse may be the case. Struggling to care for 4 kids with special needs on one's own, but not through choice, must be pretty tough.

Thinking of her example, I'd also like to see any dads (well, either parents, but I think it is usually dads) who fail to support the kids they have produced, locked up or very heavily fined.

TheHumancatapult · 25/11/2011 12:23

im with hunty on this one .Ds1 is at catering collage and working p/t .

Ds2 is planning med school

dd well at 8 think not to woried what she wants to be

ds 3 has sn i just want him to be happy

I would like to see more male teachers as i think that would help .

I did and have worked and according to teh govermnet i still am ( as ds3 carer )

and yup i suspect my ex will swing it where im going ahve to justify it as im seen as a easy target and dreading the DLA/PIP changes as im indepndley mobile unde rthe new rules despite being in wheelchair full time and erm booking trains at least 24 hours

CardyMow · 25/11/2011 10:43

I agree that dc shouldn't think it is the 'norm' to be out of work, and on benefits - but I know that my dc don't. My older dc (13yo DD) has lots of SN as well as her asd - but is aiming on going to catering college and working in a kitchen somewhere - she has found something she IS going to be capable of doing. My 9yo DS1 is aiming for Grammar school, University then medical school. He is more than likely to be able to do that - he is VERY clever (not bragging, his HT has said that he is in the top 2% for IQ when they tested him). I am trying my best to bring up my dc to be ambitious, to find something they are capable of doing for employment, and they have seen me try my best to work despite my own issues, and they see my Ex-P work like a dog for NMW.

And I agree with the role models thing - maybe a good start on that would be to attract more male teachers to schools. There are 4 at my dc's school, and it has been very good for my dc to see that, it gives them positive male role models. (Unlike my Ex-H, DS1's father, who is a feckless profligate layabout. But I'LL be sent back to work before him, they pick on the easy targets, not those who REALLY refuse to work. It's one of the reasons why he's my Ex-H )

dreamingofsun · 25/11/2011 10:20

In your instance i think it would be irresponsible to have another child. If someone is long term unemployed and they cannot support their current children its irresponsible to have even more. The examples of people you give - one being disabled and the other struggling to support themselves - again people who would be irresponsible to have large families as they wouldn't be able to support them. this seems quite cut and dried to me.

agree its not the children's fault and things obviously need to be put in place to minimise the negativity of poor parenting. So instead of giving extra benefit money that can be used on things other than the children, funds should be used to provide out of school facilities - role models and food etc so that these children can find a way out of poverty and not just think its the norm.

larrygrylls · 25/11/2011 10:16

Hunty,

Well argued. However, the alternative is to create an entirely non judgmental system where people are encouraged financially to make irresponsible decisions. I take your point about where to draw the line but there has to be a line on the other side. What do you do about a single mother, aged 24, with 6 children. Give her a four bed house and plenty of allowances? Then how does someone of a similar age with one child, struggling to rent a couple of rooms without subsidy feel?

Is it possible to have a system where no one is unfortunate, without overly penalising everyone else?

CardyMow · 25/11/2011 10:07

Larry - I don't deny that 'these people' exist - but it's not their CHILDREN'S fault! You can't penalise a child for the wrongdoings of their parent - it would be like putting a 3yo in jail if their parents burgled a house, yet letting their parents who comitted the crime walk free.

And who gets to decide who is 'worthy'? ATOS? Because they aren't exactly doing a stellar job of it at the moment - if you consider that 70% of the people they say aren't disabled enough for disability benefits are found to be disabled enough for disability benefits on appeal. And such a position of power over other people's lives as to be the person deciding whether they are 'worthy' of financial support is open to abuse. And as they have been given 'targets' to meet to make a 20% reduction in the cost of disability benefits (Including claimants of the old IB, ESA and DLA), despite the fact that there is only a 0.5% fraud and error figure on claims of disability benefits - which means that a HUGE percentage of those who are being refused disability benefits have a GENUINE disability that affects their ability to work.

Where do you draw the line? Do you draw the line at someone who has been in and out of Foster care for so much of their childhood that they have attended 8 different Secondary schools but have left with no qualifications, making it nigh on impossible for them to EVER get a job as they are functionally illiterate - they have never worked, so they are undeserving of help? They are unable to find gainful employment, so they should never be allowed to procreate? Do you draw the line at helping someone with uncontrolled epilepsy? If so, where should the line be drawn - one seizure a week, or two seizures a day? Because both make it difficult to gain and keep employment. THAT is the difficulty - where do you draw the arbitary line between 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor.

I HAVE worked in the past, and am hopeful that in the future I will work again, albeit PT due to both my disability and the fact that I have caring responsibilities as two of my four dc have asd, and I am unable to find childcare for one of them. I did not choose my current situation, I am in it because my Ex-P chose to walk out on me. Am I deserving or undeserving poor? These things are subjective, and every person will have a different opinion on who is deserving and who isn't, which is why a system like that will always end up adversely affecting some of those who should genuinely be helped.

larrygrylls · 25/11/2011 09:07

Bread,

The point you make about benefits being for ordinary people who have hit a hard time is exactly what they were for. What they were never for was to subsidise people who have never worked and never intend to work. Unless you decide to become like the threee monkeys, you cannot deny that these people exist and are a drain on society as a whole.

claig · 25/11/2011 09:06

Yes, it was that Chairman Miaow.
Lucky they hadn't invented "global warming" at that time. That would have been right up his street.

HarryHillatemygoldfish · 25/11/2011 07:53

And wasn't it the extreme left in China who instigated a one child policy? Hmm

claig · 24/11/2011 22:29

"As first reported by FrontPage Magazine, Holdren and his co-authors spend a portion of the book discussing possible government programs that could be used to lower birth rates.

Those plans include forcing single women to abort their babies or put them up for adoption; implanting sterilizing capsules in people when they reach puberty; and spiking water reserves and staple foods with a chemical that would make people sterile.

To help achieve those goals, they formulate a "world government scheme" they call the Planetary Regime, which would administer the world's resources and human growth"

The Planetary Regime? Is that what will "save the planet" for us proles?

claig · 24/11/2011 22:23

People call the Tories teh 'nasty party', but some of these left wing global warming types don't seem all that cuddly

www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/21/obamas-science-czar-considered-forced-abortions-sterilization-population-growth/

claig · 24/11/2011 21:50

Fascinating article in the Spectator about eugenics and the welfare state.

I was aware that many of the Fabian socialists were eugenicists, but I never knew that Beveridge and Keynes were members of the Eugenics Society.

This is something the article says about Beveridge

"William Beveridge, later to emerge as the midwife of the post-1945 welfare settlement, was also very active in the eugenics movement at this time. Today, Beveridge is generally portrayed as a kindly, avuncular figure, one almost dripping with compassion and benevolence. But his roots were in a particularly hardline strand of eugenics. He argued in 1909 that ?those men who through general defects are unable to fill such a whole place in industry, are to be recognised as ?unemployable?. They must become the acknowledged dependents of the State... but with complete and permanent loss of all citizen rights ? including not only the franchise but civil freedom and fatherhood.? And that, except for the loss of fatherhood, has effectively been his legacy."

www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/thisweek/5571423/how-eugenics-poisoned-the-welfare-state.thtml

breadandbutterfly · 24/11/2011 21:29

No, HarryHill (do like your username though not your politics, BTW :) ) - you are missing the point that many people (yourself?) think that those on benefits are inherently inferior, hence should have less right to 'breed' (their attitudes - clearly expressed, and in such language, on this very thread - not my own, I should add!).

I do agree with you that that attitude is nonsense - nevertheless, this thread has made it abundantly clear that some people do seem to see those on benefits as some sort of innate underclass, rather than just ordinary people exactly like themselves who've hit a tough spot.

Which I'm sure you'll agree with me is the real situation. I'm sure you'll agree with me also that for that reason it would be most unreasonable to refuse to pay for the children of ordinary people just like us who may have hit a temporary bad patch.

Do as you would be done unto etc.

newwave · 24/11/2011 21:05

New Labour very successsfully perpetrated a myth that the Tories were the "nasty" party,

What do you mean "were" they still are

woollyideas · 24/11/2011 11:46

Larry,

Calling another poster a 'stupid woman' is inappropriate. I have reported your post.

larrygrylls · 24/11/2011 09:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

HarryHillatemygoldfish · 24/11/2011 09:23

breadandbutterfly

You are wrong. The word inheritable is key here. Being dependent on benefits is not an inheritable trait, ergo, restricting benefits cannot be a policy of eugenics.

They key is gen, genetics. Inheritable.

Case dismissed Grin

breadandbutterfly · 24/11/2011 09:14

larrygrylls

You rude, rude and very wrong little man (or is it woman?). That is probably the single most personally offensive post I've ever read on mumsnet. By all means disagree with Julia, but by calling her a 'stupid, stupid woman' you come across as unbelievably rude and patronising (and sexist? - echoes of David Cameron there...) - and also stupid, because you are yourself wrong. (Note: don't criticise others for their 'stupidity' unless you're extraordinarily sure you've checked your facts first.)

Eugenics is (dictionary definition) "the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics). "

You'll note that the definition goes well beyond the "death camps and forced sterilisation" that you suggest; you appear to be confusing eugenics with genocide, possibly? The actual definition is far, far wider, and thus includes, for example, everything from use of modern reproductive technologies eg producing babies free from various genetic disorders, to funding for families with children. Indeed, it seems absolutely clear that removing funding for the poor to have children would act as a serious 'discouragement' to them to do so.

Here's Wikipedia:

"Eugenics has, from the very beginning, meant many different things to many different people. Historically, the term has referred to everything from prenatal care for mothers to forced sterilization and euthanasia. To population geneticists the term has included the avoidance of inbreeding without necessarily altering allele frequencies; for example, J. B. S. Haldane wrote that "the motor bus, by breaking up inbred village communities, was a powerful eugenic agent".[37] Much debate has taken place in the past, as it does today, as to what exactly counts as eugenics.[38] Some types of eugenics deal only with perceived beneficial and/or detrimental genetic traits. ...

The term eugenics is often used to refer to movements and social policies influential during the early 20th century. In a historical and broader sense, eugenics can also be a study of "improving human genetic qualities". It is sometimes broadly applied to describe any human action whose goal is to improve the gene pool. "

Which arguably is what is behind attempts to restrict numbers of children that the poor may have.

In short - you are perfectly entitled to state that the number of children the poor should have should be restricted (just as we are to judge you for those attitudes, by the way).

What you are NOT entitled to do is to rewrite the English language in your attempt to make this point and to humiliate and patronise a fellow poster. Hmm