Anyone else been balloted to strike on Nov 30th?

Masie

Anyone who crosses a picket line is a scab even worse if you are a member of a union who has balloted for the action. No doubt if you dont show solidarity with your colleagues and they win the "battle" you will still agree to have your pension downgraded, only fair if you were not ready to support the action.

In one school several years ago two teachers went in during a strike and when the strike was over they were sent to coventry, no other member of the teaching staff would have any communication at all with the two strike breakers other than the minimum required to do their jobs.

You do have to cross a picket line, but the numbers are legally controlled - I seem to remember either 5 or 7 maximum and you cannot be abused. BUT if you're in a union you should go with the ballot decision - or why are you in it?

I will be striking - the first time in 20 years for me.

I have been in the Civil Service for 26 years and the changes will mean I will be approx £140,000 worse off over my life time (combination of additional contributions and reduced pension, this figure includes the RPI/CPI change too). Our final salary pension scheme closed to new entrants approx 8 years ago, and Hutton was clear that Public sector pensions are affordable. The government intended changes are little more than a tax on the public sector.

This 'we're in it together' is utter tosh - the luxury (£1m plus) housing market in London is buoyant, its only the lower end of the housing market that is stalled. doesn't that tell you something?

By all means change what is offered to new entrants, but don't change the goal posts for those who have believed they have a certain level of pension to come. The fact that succesive governments have failed to invest the money they should have put aside for the pension that they offered me when they offered me a job isn't my failure.

Also, this view that taxpayers pay my pension infuriates me - my employer pays for my pension because they advertised a job, I applied and was sucessful, they said they would pay me £x and that I would have pension benefits of £y - I have honoured my contract with them, they should honour theirs with me. This isn't a treat that I am going to get for no reason, it is my pension as per my contract of employment.

It is irrelevant how much I would have to invest to get a pension of whatever level - I was given a set of terms and conditions and I expect my employer to honour them. When a government reneges on its commitments - and retrospectively changes the law to allow them to do it - then the rest of the workforce should be very very afraid.

Make no mistake - those of you that are sitting there thinking 'I don't get it so why should you' - prepare to see whatever you would have been entitled to shrink significantly as the 'race for the bottom' starts.

Symbolic 15-minute walk out? Just heard this mooted on the News.

So I wouldn't have to cross a picket line like you see on the TV? There are some horrible scenes of workers getting screamed at through their cars, or things thrown at them....

I really, really can't afford to lose a days pay, esp. as I would imagine I'll stick have to pay for childcare that day - I'm not saying I'm thrilled at what they are proposing though, but as this moment in time finances don't allow me to strike. That may change for our family in the future though - and yes, I know it's for the long term, but if it's a case of going into debt now then I can't do it.

I've been ballotted, but I am on mat leave...

I am an NHS worker, not a HCP. I have paid into my pension for 22 years and whilst I fully expected to have to work for longer to draw my pension, as state pension age has risen over the years anyway, to pay MORE in and gain less from that really galls me.

However, I am a recent member of Unison (was advised to join when it looked like my job was either going to under threat or terms greatly altered), and I have no idea what the implications are if Unison strikes. Do I have to?

Rabbit, very very well put.

Those at the top need "incentives" to work hard and do their best.

Those at the bottom need their pay, terms and conditions cut "for the good of the company/society"

The Tory philosophy in a nutshell.

I can see now how pay gaps and the divide between rich and poor are ever increasing. It appears to work like this: if you are poor, you should compare yourself to people even less well off than you and aspire to be in their position (ie never fight for better conditions, never fight to maintain the status quo and never ask for a far worse deal to be ameliorated in any way). If you are extremely rich, you should compare yourself to people even better off than you and use this to justify your pay increases and bonuses. What a jolly world we live in.

"I'm not sure where you think you can get an annuity that pay £5000 for every £100k in your pension pot?"

I did a quick 'what if' comparison - a few quotes based on £100k - but, no, there was no index-linking, it was a straight amount and I hadn't built in anything for fund-growth to keep things simple. Which brings me back to the question... what is an NHS worker (as they seem to be average) being asked to pay vs what they had to pay previously?

Nurses always have a more difficult decision than the rest of us, MissTina. I don't know what you should do about the pensions thing - but you also have to contend with all the other changes to the NHS - so you have my sympathy!

When there have been strikes in the past, have the patients and their families been given advance warning? Are the families allowed to come in and help look after their relatives if the nurses are on strike?

Another one on the fence here. I'm a member of the rcn and can't come to any sort of decision on this! I want to take action to protect not only my pension but as others have said, I also want to make my voice heard - enough is enough! I just can't see how I can afford to contribute more when the cost of living has increased so much and we aren't likely to have any pay rises in the near future. It's not just about the proposed end to the final salary scheme, it's also the increased contributions and later retirement age. I just can't see how I will be physically up to staying up all night on my feet when I'm 67. And it's all very well saying that I would be able to change jobs when I'm older, but where would I go? There aren't that many jobs in nursing that don't involve shifts or physical work, not without major retraining anyway, and I don't think I'll be up for university at that age either!

On the other hand, my conscience is screaming 'no!'. Who would be left to look after the patients? And if the strikers were successful in overthrowing this (or at least getting some proper negotiations going) how would I feel knowing that I hadn't helped?

I'm also think you are slightly underestimating the average public sector pension

The Hutton report found the average pension payments in 2009-10 was £7,800, with this breakdown

Local government worker: £4,052
NHS worker: £7,234
Civil servant: £6,199
Teacher: £9,806
Member of armed forces: £7,722

So i think the actual equivalent defined contribution pension pot in the private sector is probably around £300k or so.

CogitoErgoSometimes

I'm not sure where you think you can get an annuity that pay £5000 for every £100k in your pension pot? You might get a level annuity that pays 5% but if you want something inflation linked (which makes it comparable to public sector pension indexation) I suspect that you would struggle to get much more than 2.5%-3%.

So realistically to get £5000 a year, a private sector defined contribution pension pot will need to be close to £200k.

So assuming you started your pension at 23 and took it at 68 (45 years) then you would have needed to save around £370/month in today's terms to get a £5000 pension in today's terms. Obviously if your investments had outperformed inflation this would be less and more if they had underperformed.

Solopower - I feel exactly the same way you do.

I'm torn further in that DH works in the private sector (in a 'good' job), and has nowhere near the same employment rights or pension that I do. He has rightly pointed out that there are probably many, many people working right now who would give their right arm for a non-redundancy policy (which we have) and the sort of pension rights I enjoy in return for working longer (albeit with a reduced pension).

Having said that, I did sign up for a particular set of terms and conditions....oh, I just don't know what to do.

Does anyone know what happens if you decide not to strike? Do you just go into work as normal? Do you have to cross a picket line and have things thrown at your car/verbal abuse hurled at you?

Added to which, I don't trust this government, and I'm far from sure that austerity is the way to go or that they would ever, ever, put us first when it comes to priorities.

Basically it comes down to this: is it really a good idea to make a whole load of people poorer while in work (= less money to spend/taxes to pay/more need for NHS/benefits), and when old (= generation of poorer older people who need more help from working younger people)? I just see how this makes sense.

I think I've just climbed off the fence. Maybe.

Properlush, I am a fence-sitter, I'm afraid. On the one hand, I can see why it's unfair to people to sign up for one set of terms of employment, only to have this changed without any consultation. On the other, I feel that, as public sector employees we also have to take our share of the austerity measures. We are all living longer, so we should be prepared to work longer, so that younger people aren't burdened with supporting us. But if we work longer, we are taking jobs from younger people who need them more.

As I said, totally split.

Academic question. I was doing a few calculations based on the widely reported figure that the average public sector worker retires on a pension of £5000... correct me if I'm wrong. I worked out that under a money-purchase style arrangement where the final fund goes towards an annuity, a relatively healthy retiree would have to have about £100,000 invested in order to get an annuity that provides them with £5000/year. Since pension funds can go down as well as up that means someone starting work age 20 and retiring age 65 has to put aside about £180/month to hit the £100,000 target. Obviously, if the employer contributes to the scheme, the employee's contribution comes down.

So the question is.... for this average worker expecting a pension of £5000/year on retirement, what do they currently contribute and what is the proposal for the future?

Sorry meant to say no we've not been balloted yet (RCN) the article I linked to is relevant though. :)