Greeks. Cats. Pigeons.

Newsnight is reporting on Europe trying to impose austerity on Italy. The Italians are resistant. There are calls to get rid of some of their religious holidays to keep the workers working harder. They are trying to hit the Church. They want to reduce workers' rights in Italy. All of these things are the goal of the elites.

I don't care who gets a bonus as long as the state could afford it, but it turns out they couldn't.

I don't think a Greek default is a good thing, just an inevitable thing. Probably better for them to default and return to the Drachma, obviously they would still suffer in the short to medium term, but having control of their own currency would surely allow them to rebuild their economy in the long term, instead of struggling for decades with huge debt.

I'm willing to bet that the pay is generally low though Disputandum, or is it only acceptable for the already loaded to get bonuses?

Do the Greeks get tax credits? These are essentially a "bonus", you know, to allow working poor people to do extravagant things like eat and cover their bodies in fabric.

If the Greek Government falls or the referendum whenever it is held is lost then it will cause chaos and economic disaster in the Eurozone as the markets will turn on them and this would probably take Britain down too due to the drop in trade and the impact it would have on our financial crisis. Why some people think this would be a good thing baffles me.

And Reuters reports here about how public sector workers receive 14 months of pay per year; half a month at Easter, half a month in the summer and a whole month at Christmas.

On top of that the article refers to foresters receiving a bonus for working outdoors, and some civil servants receiving one for using a computer.

Your anecdotes are interesting alespolismum, but I would respectfully point out that you were in the wrong job.

I think it's a brilliant move by him, he gets either a clear mandate for cuts if the Greeks say yes to the bailout, he also gets a good bargaining chip for better terms. If the Greeks say no, and it all goes tits up, he gets to shrug off the responsibility for telling the troika to stuff it. You are not going to get many politicians openly decrying the whole democracy lark.

I imagine he will go on Friday though, whether he can get re-elected is another matter.

Alexpolismum - take it up with New York Times. According to them, 14% of employees retire early. That's anyone on a list of 580 'hazardous' jobs..bomb disposal experts, coal miners and..erm..hairdressers (dangerous chemicals) and radio presenters (bacteria on microphones).

The latest austerity propaganda that I saw on Newsnight was one of their reports on how we should start eating "environmentally friendly" food - that is code for ants, beetles and locusts. All the elite's "sustainable" save the planet types were on pushing the elite's message to the public with a straight face.

That's the type of austerity the elites have got planned for the people. Expect to see more reports on the necessity of it in the future.

What the fuck is the Greek PM playing at? Berlosconi is kicking off too.

It's all about implementing austerity. A tighter fiscal union will enable an unelected Central Committee to implement that austerity Europe-wide.

We are told the pensions propaganda for a reason. We have to educated that we must accept later retirement, because anything else is not "sustainable". Greece is shown to us as an example of what can happen if we do not accept later retirement. Eventually, it will be extended to "work till you drop" and we will need more examples to persuade us of that necessity.

Labour's Harriet Harman was working on increasing pensionable age, then the Coalition took over the baton and speeded it up. The elite want this to happen all over Europe. That's why Berlusconi, who is also coincidentally under financial pressure from the "markets", has had to suggest a 67 year retirement in Italy. But Italy is not as easy to convince as the UK. The right wing Umberto Bossi has said it is "impossibile" that Italians will have to retire at 67. It could even threaten the fall of Berlusconi's government. But the elite don't care, because a left wing governemnt is even easier to control than Umberto Bossi.

Countries that are not easy to convince will come under financial pressure from the "markets" until they change their tune.

Disputandum - The old pensions chestnut again. According to your sources, exactly what percentage of the Greek people retire early? And how high were the xmas and Easter bonuses (now abolished)?

From OECD 2009:

Greece:
Average Age of Retirement:
Men:
Official: 65 Effective:61.9 (Germany 61.8, France 59.1, Slovak Republic 59.9)

Women:
Official: 60 Effective: 59.6 (Germany 60.5, France 59.7, Slovak Republic 56.2)

I can't speak for everyone, but my bonuses were not even a third of my monthly salary, and my fairly typical Greek pensioner MIL (who retired at 60, incidentally) says much the same thing. And given the low pensions, these bonuses were widely regarded as essential to pay the bills.

I am not trying to defend some of Greece's frankly idiotic economic policies over the years, but there is enough to genuinely criticise without yet more hyperbole about people retiring young.

The Greek politicians and the international financial advisers who advised them and helped produce the figures for Euro entry must have known the consequences and must be responsible for what happened. I think they set Greece up. The Greek people know it, which is why they are out in the streets.

The other possibility is that there are forces whose interest it is to see the destruction of the Euro and that countries are being picked off one at a time, with the markets being used to downgrade their creditworthiness and put the Euro and the EU Central Banks under pressure.

But I think a closer fiscal union is more likely to be the real objective. I think a lot of this is theatre to frighten people into accepting that union.

The French won't say what theirs is.

Funny.

'I wonder what the total exposure of European banks is to Greek debt?'

I think it is mainly French banks that are exposed directly, but of course the banks are interlinked in a globalised world, so the effect could go further.

It depends what the real aim behind it all is. I think it may be to force through a tighter fiscal union in Europe without asking teh people to vote on it as usual. They probably don't need or want Greece in that tighter union, so Greece may be allowed to leave via a referendum, possibly. Greece and Ireland etc. have just been the catalyst that will lead to a tighter union and closer integration. But I think that tighter austerity Europe-wide is also part of the plan, so things are unlikely to get better anytime soon.

'Will we have to go through another round of recapitalising the banks, the figures involved seem to huge to be real.'

I think that may well be necessary. Cui bono? The banks will be recapitalised "because they are too big to fail", and the people across Europe and in Greece have to pay the price. Austerity, pension cuts, benefit cuts across Europe. It's the same old, same old. It's almost as if it was to plan.

Don't forget that a previous Labour government called the IMF in to Britain. The IMF tells countries what to do. The politicians have to listen or they don't get the loans.

Too huge, not to huge!

There is a brilliant line in Michael Lewis' Boomerang (a MUST read about all this) where he says in most places the banks sank the countries, but in Greece the country sank the banks.

claig, yes do remember Argentina, I wonder what the total exposure of European banks is to Greek debt? Will we have to go through another round of recapitalising the banks, the figures involved seem to huge to be real.

ThisisaSignofthetimes, I guess it will be a managed default. Argentina defaulted but are doing alright now. The banks wrote down lots of Latin American debt many years ago. These things can be managed in an orderly way if there is a will to do it.

I don't suppose any country can be forced to remain within the Euro, but I wonder what signals it will send to the likes of Spain, Portugal and Italy that are not far off where the Greeks are financially? In some ways its quite refreshing that the Greeks are gretting to vote on the subject, even if it is engineered to save the PM. Would nice to be able to vote on Europe here!

'the greek PM is trying to save his own ass'

I don't think so. He is only a custodian, he is doing what he is told to do by the people who are lending him money. The people are against him because they know that he is really controlled by others.