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Politics

For all those getting more left-wing as they get older - we are not alone!

60 replies

breadandbutterfly · 24/10/2011 19:11

:)

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/23/miss-britain-of-public-ownership

Lovely article. So nice to know I'm not the only one. :)

OP posts:
moondog · 19/11/2011 08:38

'All research has shown that the more equal society is ie the more proressive its taxation policies, the happier its people are.'

Really? Where is that?
Aslo, what is your definition of 'equal'.

Poor old Hully. I am cringing for you as you come across as a complete numpty. I thoguht you were a little cleverer than this.

breadandbutterfly · 18/11/2011 18:07

OK, MrPants, I'll try to explain where i'm coming from. Although you saying you 'despise Socialism in all its forms' is a little unhelpful as a conversation opener; much like hullygully's rude names for Tories, it doesn't really get the 'discussion' off on the right foot.

Anyway, atttempting to ignore that... Like you, I work hard. I run my own business - I also work in the public sector AND in the private sector - part time in all of them - so find this 'us v them' attitude to the public sector rather unhelpful. (For what it's worth, my public sector work pays me by far the poorest wage.)

Sometimes your remarks come across as a little like trolling - I'll take your word for it that they are not and that your views spring from a heartfelt position, as mine do.

OK. The point at which we massively diverge (- I should add, just to clear up any confusion that I am no drumbeater for New Labour either -some of the points you made above about removal of civil liberties under New Labour I have no particular beef with, and please don't attempt to attack my post by claiming New Labour were no better - no, they had many serious flaws too, and I didn't vote for them either) was this quote above:

"Please, just as a thought experiment, instead of asking what would happen if the government spent ever more lumps of your money, try thinking what would happen if the government spent less - much, much less - and let you keep the difference to spend as you saw fit."

The reason I objected to that was because I don't need some interesting hypothetical stretch of the imagination to figure out what the world would be like if the government spent less - much less - on things that really matter to me, because that is exactly what this government ARE doing. I watch the NHS being destroyed and sold piece by piece to profiteers, and I worry for my health and my family's health. I watch as universities and future students are starved of funds and worry about how my kids will be able to afford to go to university, and if they do, whether there will be anything left to make it a worthwhile experience, even if fees were reduced at some theoretical future point - a decade or more of brain drain and under-funding will have very sad consequences for our universities, and our country, that go far beyond the immediate effects on my kids. I look at the money being cut from essential local services - school transport is one that is personally going to make my life a bloody nightmare. But then I've got off lightly compared to all those relying on social care or respite care, say, that is being cut. Or the libraries, children's centres etc etc facing cuts - maybe non-essentials, but that all lay a large part in our communal well-being and quality of life.

What you appear to forget, MrPants, is that your business, that you appear to think earns a profit to support you entirely on your own, without anyone else to help you, is nothing of the kind. You rely, as we all do, on countless services provided by the state and paid for via our taxes. Without it, not only could your business not function, but your quality of life would be zilch. (I'm assuming from your description above that you are not one of the 1% ie one of the small class of multi-millionaires or billionares who really can afford your own army of mercenaries, to protect your wealth as society descends into anarchy.) Where do I start? Police, the legal system, courts, judges, juries - your business wouldn't get far without these. Infrastructure - roads, public transport, rubbish collection - again, without these, you'd find it rather hard to run a business. Trading standards to ensure you're not ripped off by suppliers. As an engineer, presumably you attended school and some kind of post-school training/education - again, probably paid by the state to a greater or lesser degree (even private schools rely on teachers largely trained in the state system, at state-run universities, and also receive hefty tax breaks). Etc etc etc ad nauseam. Are you really suggesting that next time you want to expand your business to a different part of the country, you club together with some like-minded individuals and build your own roads??

It's easy to complain about taxes but try to remember that the happiest and most economically successful countries are those like Scandinavia and Germany, which actually pay relatively high taxes and have correspondingly relatively equal societies and strong benefits. They are also highly unionised.

I do understand the appeal of paying less tax - who wouldn't like a bigger pay packet at the end of the month? But I'd challenge you to find anywhere in history or geography where a no-taxation model has actually worked. You get closer to it in Victorian Britain, for example - but you'd have to be really astonishingly self-centred to suggest that a society where children worked up chimneys was a 'better' one as you weren't paying taxes to pay for other people's children. All research has shown that the more equal society is ie the more proressive its taxation policies, the happier its people are.

Looking forward to your response.

OP posts:
malakadoush · 18/11/2011 14:50

Well said Hully

Ironman 230,000 daily circulation I think you'll find not 175,000.

moondog - looks like we'll just have to manage with mrpants frothing at the mouth, shitting frog spawn and begin usual rant about Tory labour filth.
Wink

CaptainNancy · 18/11/2011 10:01

bêtes noires

I wonder why I never come on the politics board these days... Hmm

mollschambers · 18/11/2011 09:46

I find myself becoming less leftie tbh. Although as a teen I was probably verging on Commie so it's all relative. Actually I'm trying not to think about it too much right now. To upsetting to witness the country being fucked over by Shiny Dave and Gideon.

Hullygully · 18/11/2011 09:37

I'm sorry, Mr Pants, I just can't be bothered.

My syllogism says it all. Basic, but true.

MrPants · 17/11/2011 23:26

Hullygully & breadandbutterfly I really don't know what I've done to piss on your chips and generate such hostility.

I'm not thick but I'm no brainbox either, nor am I all that greedy but I am right wing (or, more realistically I despise Socialism in all its forms). I own my own business which, at the moment, only employs me. It certainly doesn't pay any more than I could realistically earn doing the same job for a large established company (I'm an engineer). Hopefully, if things pick up in the future, I might take on someone else and there will be one less person on the dole. I have an aversion to seeing my hard earned money being confiscated with menaces by a government that is happy to spend it on luxuries and non-essentials and I choose to exercise my right to free speech to tell people about this - none of this makes me the devil incarnate.

I grew up in a benefit dependant household in one of the most deprived areas of Northern England and chose to move over 200 miles away to find work. My working class credentials are impeccable. I live a comfortable life and would happily consider myself to be middle class nowadays. I got to where I am despite the government, not because of it. As I said, I'm no academic brainbox I got where I am with application, hard work and good timing - if I can be successful, anyone can - honestly, I'm nothing special. Does this position justify being called the harshest word in our language - I think not. Is this self-interested bollocks? Perhaps.

The typo was a genuine 'don't know'. It's one of those bete noires that I thought we all have. Seriously, sometimes I struggle to spell the simplest words - Every time I type words like obviously, friend, bureaucrat and argument I have to copy and paste into Word so I can use the spellchecker! I told you I wasn't that bright!

I do try to have a consistent thought process which connects my posts and the topics I comment on - this probably makes me seem like a one trick nutter - but I can assure you that I do have a life away from Mumsnet. If there has been a failure of my logic I am quite happy to have it pointed out to me so that I can either clarify my point or concede that I'm wrong. You are definitely not arguing with a brick wall. Ad hominem attacks merely cheapen the debate and make you look stupid.

breadandbutterfly · 17/11/2011 22:20

MrPants - hoping the 'arguement' was a typo, not a genuine don't know.

I typed a long post in reply to one of your posts a bit ago, lost it and lost the will entirely to repeat it, as I knew it would be like arguing with a brick wall. You see, I haven't given up on my logic, but am rather dubious about yours.

OP posts:
Hullygully · 17/11/2011 22:13

Or when there's no need for it because the evidence stands up in front of you every day talking self-interested bollocks.

And if we want logic, here's a syllogism:

I am a thick and/or greedy cunt
All right-wingers are thick and/or greedy cunts
Therefore I am a cunt

MrPants · 17/11/2011 20:38

The only reason to ever give up on a logical arguement is when you run out of logic.

breadandbutterfly · 17/11/2011 20:09

hullygully - made me smile. Obviously I disapprove entirely of your bad language but... Grin

Certainly there are points where the temptation to give up logical argument is strong.

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Hullygully · 17/11/2011 18:50

I am more left wing than ever because the right are just total and utter cunts. End of.

moondog · 17/11/2011 18:49

I am liking mr Pants very much indeed.

Oh and wondering when Newwave will start frothing at the mouth, shitting frog spawn and begin usual rant about Tory filth.

moondog · 17/11/2011 18:47

'Project Us'

My arse.

breadandbutterfly · 17/11/2011 18:44

I expect we would.

However, at any point isn't the same as in an individual's lifetime. For example, young children and most pensioners are probably net recipients. But that's not to say that during their working lives they won't amply pay that back. Or that an ideal society is one where small children and pensioners are forced to work to pay for their upkeep.

So I suspect your figures are a bit misleading - it's not 'half leeches and half selfless angels', as your statistic would suggest. It's probably 90% normal people, 5% sick or disabled and 5% 'happy to live off the state'.

It also ignores those who contribute in non-financial ways eg carers and parents of young children - the economy needs them (paying people to do all that caring would cost a lot more) but their contribution is never valued, maybe because it is never quantified. It also fails to take into account the mismatch between hard work and financial reward - thus the CEO of Llloyds Bank who is currently doing a sickie is presumably earning millions despite this, so counts as a good net contributor (assuming he pays a small prportion in taxes). But a cashier in one of LLoyds branches, on not much more than minimum wage might be classed as a net recipient, because they are paid such shit wages that the taxpayer has to bump this up with tax credits.

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MrsJAlfredPrufrock · 17/11/2011 11:11

There was an interesting piece on R4 Today prog this am. It was about immigrant spouses and families coming into the country (irrelevant to this discussion) and the following statistic came up: at any one time, half of the UK population are net contributors and the other half are net recipients. I thought that was interesting.

It would be interesting to know how the recipient half vote and how the contributor half vote. I suspectif the results were expressed as a Venn diagram we would see a disjoint set Venn.

MrPants · 15/11/2011 22:57

I think you've misunderstood my earlier point. I said that if the government wasn't bailing out every Tom, Dick and Harry with my money, my wife wouldn't have to work. In other words, at the moment she has no choice in the matter.

Why the personal circumstances and, in more than the odd case, lifestyle choice of a single parent is my responsibility I would, respectfully, ask you to explain.

crazynanna · 15/11/2011 20:06

At least a wife with a DH/DP has a choice....lone mothers',it seems,do not.
I am just making that point clear.

MrPants · 15/11/2011 20:04

crazynanna just let me get this clear, are you asking me if I think it's right that my wife should have to go to work because some other womans partner did a runner?

Or to flip the question, why should my wife have to go to work just because she's in a stable relationship?

ironman I'd forgotten about racist four year olds - God they were awful weren't they!

ironman · 15/11/2011 17:14

Mr. Pants. Or should it be Mr.AngryPants. Well done on your post about the Labour parties failings which are many. You did forget the economy as you say, and how the Labour Party bankrupt the country! Oh yes and you forgot schooling, how the schools lost all sense of discipline under the lefties and failed children right, left and centre. Oh yes and how that bastard Ed Balls brought in 'hate crime' in primary and secondary schools and labelled children as young as four as racists. The labour party was the most fascist bunch ever to run this country. Oh yes and you forgot Tony Blair and his illegal wars. The list goes on, if I had to write down all the failings of the Labour party I would be here til next week!! Grin

crazynanna · 15/11/2011 16:33

So,according to your post,MrPants,a "woman" whose man is "long gone" should take the job your wife does now so she can stay at home with your child,and thus the "woman" who is alone with her child has to be away from hers? Hmm

ironman · 15/11/2011 16:26

People become more right wing as they got older, not left wing! If it's an article in the Guardian I never believe the left wing drivel this paper spouts. Did it take the poll from it's 175.000 daily readership? The Telegraph, (or any other paper for that matter) saying that the people turn more leftie as they get older I would believe, but not them. What about the baby boomers? Most of them are certainly not left wing.Grin

Taghain · 14/11/2011 16:43

Nope, we don't have squatters in St Pauls. They are outside the Cathedral, and by permission of the CofE authorities.

There are plenty of laws already to prevent squatting in occupied family houses, but these new laws criminalise other activities too. Previously it was a civil offence - one with a very quick remedy.

MrPants · 14/11/2011 14:51

I am a libertarian and fervently so. I believe in a small state, minimal governmental interference and, naturally enough, low taxation. I too see massive injustices in our society and hate seeing ever increasing problems heaped upon those who are less fortunate than me.

I don't believe that the problem is a lack of effort from our government; I think that too much effort has been a large part of the problem.

I believe the welfare state traps people into a life of low-aspirational benefit dependency. In many cases women plan families so that they can maximise benefit claims and get their hands on social housing, the fathers are long gone, and even if they stuck around, may not be working themselves. This compounds a cycle of benefit dependency which is now into its third or fourth generation.

Unemployment itself is a function of the large state. I am the breadwinner in our household but my wife still works part time. The amount that she brings home is well under the amount that I pay in tax. If I paid less tax she wouldn't have to work at all. She could be the primary carer to our child (win for her and our child) and someone currently sat on the dole could have my wife?s job (win for them and for society).

Big governments, especially ones with huge welfare state components, cost lots of money. We are seeing this manifest itself is through our high levels of government debt and the problems that Greece and Italy find themselves in. Please, just as a thought experiment, instead of asking what would happen if the government spent ever more lumps of your money, try thinking what would happen if the government spent less - much, much less - and let you keep the difference to spend as you saw fit.

maypole1 · 14/11/2011 14:44

Taghain really are my eyes deceiving me or don't we have squatters in st pauls

If indeed the homes/land is vacant how on earth would any one know you were their it seems to me the issue is when people want their homes back the crustys won't leave