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Politics

Tory policies wrecking the country.

193 replies

ChickenLickn · 18/10/2011 19:42

tory policies wrecking the country just like we knew they would

Tories are bad for business. Bad for you and bad for me. Unless you are a dave's mates millionaire perhaps.

OP posts:
ttosca · 03/11/2011 11:29

The Impact on Women of the Budget 2011

UK Women?s Budget Group - April 2011

www.wbg.org.uk/index_7_282363355.pdf

PBMA1980 · 02/11/2011 14:47

The unions brought about Margaret Thatcher through their behaviour. I have no sympathy for them at all.

aliceliddell · 30/10/2011 13:36

Intergalactic you sound embittered and twisted with righteous rage. Welcome to our world. You'll like it here.
Hi ttosca Ooh, don't get me started. Emergency doc at 2am. Better now. Antibiotics are a universal good.

IntergalacticHussy · 29/10/2011 21:42

Progressive social policies (surestart, tax credits etc) cost us much more than is actually spent on them because international investors like to pull their money out of the UK in order to penalise governments for providing 'welfare' to the poor, usually doubling what is actually being spent (and i'm paraphrasing Chomsky here, the man does his research) and therefore the deficit. Funnily enough they don't mind about the huge profits of arms manufacturers or endless bank bailouts. Welfare to the rich is fine and dandy. Chances are Blair had to agree to Iraq as a tradeoff for the few progressive elements of his time as prime minister. Not excusing him.

ttosca · 29/10/2011 21:25

Hi Alice!

I'm ill as well. Hope you feel better soon!

aliceliddell · 28/10/2011 16:06

tried and failed to go to St Paul's yesterday; failed due to illness.
Hey ho.

RoloTamasi · 28/10/2011 12:19

Since GDP figures include government borrowing, it's pretty damn obvious that the pretend 'growth' will be lower or stagnant if you borrow less.

Borrowing more does not fix this. It just artificially inflated the GDP figures so we can all pretend everything is rosy, whilst building up an even bigger problem to face the next time round.

ttosca · 27/10/2011 20:38

Yes, Tory policies of ideological cuts are positively harming the country.

Thanks for austerity, the UK's growth rate is amongst the lowest in europe:

fullfact.org/factchecks/pmqs_ed_miliband_david_cameron_economy_growth-2973

It is also the second lowest after Japan:

money.uk.msn.com/news/world-economy/world-economic-growth.aspx

'Significant chance' of double-dip recession, says Bank of England expert

www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/27/double-dip-recession-in-uk-possible-says-mpc-member


UK Credit rating is 'almost certainly' going to be downgraded:

UK rating downgrade 'unavoidable'

A downgrade of Britain's top notch credit rating may be unavoidable because the country can not grow out of its debts, a leading asset manager has claimed.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8822965/UK-rating-downgrade-unavoidable.html

Legal & General IM: UK downgrade almost inevitable

www.citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/legal-and-general-im-uk-downgrade-almost-inevitable/a532060?ref=wealth-manager-latest-news-list

Britain's prized AAA rating to be 'at severe risk' by 2013, says fund giant

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2048447/Britains-prized-AAA-rating-severe-risk-2013-says-fund-giant-L-G.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

ChickenLickn · 26/10/2011 21:56

Those crazy tories... What the hell are they doing in our government?!

OP posts:
aliceliddell · 26/10/2011 16:55

I know, glasnost, I know. They're out in force on the Occupy thread still. Someone has to do it. Shame they can't type on here in green ink, the traditional Font of the Mad. But still, at least we tried to stop them before they kill again.

niceguy2 · 26/10/2011 11:45

Have they though? Given we've not gone the way of Greece yet we had a similar deficit. Given we've not lost our AAA rating like Italy & Portugal and even the mighty US.

Yes growth is anemic but given the shit we're in, I think so far the cuts have actually been a success.

ChickenLickn · 25/10/2011 23:13

Posts along the lines of "we have to have these cuts to retain the confidence of the markets" are fatuous nonsense.

The 'markets' have warned this government about its policies because they are known to worsen the economic situation, and make it more difficcult to repay its debts.

So tory policies have FAILED - both the people they are supposed to serve AND the markets they keep blaming. The only likely 'winners' from these policies are the few aforementioned "daves mates millionaires".

OP posts:
niceguy2 · 25/10/2011 22:40

Whilst I'd love some sort of democratically elected government of the world whose priority is the poor & needy, i doubt either of us will see such a thing in our lifetime.

Accuse me of lacking ambition if you like but I say you are being unrealistic.

This thread is about Tories wrecking the country, not some hypothetical debate of what forms of governments are possible. I take it since you are no longer arguing against Tory policies but instead about the theory of capitalism and governments that you accept the Tories are not the bogeymen?

glasnost · 25/10/2011 20:51

Don't do it alice. Don't get sucked in.

T(u)sk, t(u)sk. Geddit?

aliceliddell · 25/10/2011 19:32

You seem to be under the impression that governments of the current type representing existing nation states are the only possibility. Lacks ambition.

niceguy2 · 25/10/2011 19:23

And once upon a time people believed the earth was flat and that Elvis is still alive.

Being more serious, the UK government is a mere small cog in the world economic stage. We no longer are able to influence world events without the support of the real players, namely US & China.

So if you want a more participatory democracy (whatever that nice sounding term actually means) then you need the support of US & China and possibly most of Europe to sign up. The Tories on their own can't do very much. Neither can Labour.

aliceliddell · 25/10/2011 18:17

Well, niceguy, some of us regard this as one of the inevitable effects of capitalism; the people serve the economy, the tail wags the dog. Many believe that a programme of reforms can humanise 'the system', and capitalism can be tamed with these unpleasant aspects controlled. Others think that is unrealistic, as unrealistic as participatory democracy being compatible with absolute monarchy and feudalism. I'm (reluctantly) one of them. I believe it is possible to have a political/economic system that is run by and serves the people.

niceguy2 · 25/10/2011 16:53

Alice, sometimes I do wonder what you think the government is. It's not some sort of elected divine power for whom no rules apply.

When they are running a deficit they have to go to the market to borrow money. That is after all what a deficit is. We are spending more than we earn.

Lenders are under no obligation to lend to the government. So if the government cannot instil confidence that they will repay their debts then they have to go borrow at a higher interest or run out of cash.

It's like if you have a shit credit history, instead of getting a 0% finance deal on your new TV, you have to go get it from Brighthouse at 29.9%.

Being a government is absolutely no different. There are limits to even government power (thankfully).

aliceliddell · 25/10/2011 15:22

No point having elections at all then. Just ask the market. Much simpler than all that messy democracy crap. This does lead inexorably to the question of who governs, in whose interests, etc. Very uncomfortable for many people.

niceguy2 · 25/10/2011 14:58

Where did I lie? The blog linked is just another variation of "Look we didn't borrow that much...therefore no problems." The point is that we have borrowed too much over the last 30 years and we can't go on borrowing.

It's not about the percentage of GDP. It's about market confidence. We cannot keep borrowing indefinitely. Blue chips can't, not even governments can.

glasnost · 25/10/2011 13:37

"This has been pointed out to you again, and again, and again. So you are basically propagating lies in order to suit your own agenda.

MN users should be wary of taking seriously someone who knowingly and deliberate sets out to deceive them."

ttosca good to see you've seen the light on our resident "nice" guy.

aliceliddell · 25/10/2011 11:42

But apart from the stagnation, the unemployment, the cuts and the homelessness, it's going really well. Hope to visit St Paul's on Thursday. That is all.

ttosca · 24/10/2011 22:52

Bned-

^The country is in a mess because of Labour and Gordon Browns fiscal irresponsibility. The Government has a budget deficit of around £150 billion which is almost unbelievable and has to be addressed. Failing to do so would see an enormous increase in bond yields as we couldn't convince investors that we were capable of dealing with our debts and the loss of the AAA credit rating which would push up interest rates throughout the whole economy.
I don't agree with everything that has been done and think that quantative easing is both an incorrect and immoral policy but to blame everything on David Cameron (or Nick Clegg) is absurd.^

No, the country is in a mess, like most Western governments, for a series of complicated reasons having to do with the financial crisis and subsequent recession. That coupled with the fact that median wages have been stagnating for three decades, so people took on debt in order to cope with rising living costs.

Nobody is blaming Cameron and Clegg for the deficit. The deficit crisis (in all countries) is the result of the financial crisis being turned in to a national debt crisis. This happened because the financial crisis caused a recession in many Western countries (lowering tax receipts and increasing welfare payments) and because tax payers bailed out the banks with trillions of dollars.

What Cameron and Clegg can be blamed for is the mishandling of the economy since they came to power. They have put in place ideological cuts something that the Tories have always wanted to do anyway and made the deficit problem worse by putting a dampener on growth.

Since the crisis, various EU countries have recovered to a slight extent in terms of growth, but the UK has performed one of the worst, with almost no growth year on year since 2008.

bned · 24/10/2011 22:34

The country is in a mess because of Labour and Gordon Browns fiscal irresponsibility. The Government has a budget deficit of around £150 billion which is almost unbelievable and has to be addressed. Failing to do so would see an enormous increase in bond yields as we couldn't convince investors that we were capable of dealing with our debts and the loss of the AAA credit rating which would push up interest rates throughout the whole economy.
I don't agree with everything that has been done and think that quantative easing is both an incorrect and immoral policy but to blame everything on David Cameron (or Nick Clegg) is absurd.

Disputandum · 24/10/2011 21:19

But this wasn't a record budget deficit (until the financial crisis hit) - the record was in the mid 90s, although it was brought under control and Labour actually inherited a balanced budget and ran a surplus for a few years.