Occupy London

My favourite protester interview of the day : 'I don't like Starbucks because they are part of the problem, but they let me charge my mobile phone and use the loo.' Brilliant. Down with the corporate overlords, unless they've got something I want.

OK so they are basically:

Demands / Objectives

1. The current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust. We need alternatives; this is where we work towards them.

Fair enough...a good start and I agree. We do need alternatives. The million dollar question is what is a suitable alternative? Just what do you expect Obama, Sarkozy, Merkel & Cameron to do exactly???

2. We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities / disabilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.

Great, another nice sounding statement. Who can disagree with that one. It's not a demand as such, nor an objective. Just a statement of fact.

3. We refuse to pay for the banks? crisis.

Fair enough. Who will then? Again, what is their objective? To be exempted from their share of the banking bailout? Or to demand that all govts withdraw their support and let them take their chances on the open economy like every other business?

4. We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.
Really? You don't accept it? You have to be an idiot then. Expenditure > income = debt. To repay debt you have to cut spending. It really is THAT simple. Arguing that cuts are not necessary is simply stupid and undermines their whole logic. It's better to argue they want tax reforms such as increased corporation tax and lower income tax.

5. We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.
Fair enough, me too.

6. We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9thNovember, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment, and to stop wars and arms dealing.
OK....a specific one. I like it, even if personally I think its a bit misguided. But at last, something specific.

7. We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world?s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.

What change!?!?! You want change but what change ffs. I want to go to the moon but it doesn't mean if I camp out in London for a year it will make it happen!

8. We stand in solidarity with the global oppressed and we call for an end to the actions of our government and others in causing this oppression.

Great, another statement rather than a demand or objective.

hereisthecity.com/2011/10/18/occupy-london-stock-exchange-what-they-want/

I think they have drawn up some key points; I'll try and find a link.

Disputandum I agree. I'm going to go along to one of their meetings and suggest that they agree on a few clear objectives!

I've not read all 9 pages but to me the fundamental problem with these "Occupy xxx" protests are that they all want change....but noone knows what.

What is the end-game here? In Cairo the protester's were all united in one single aim. The removal of the President. That unified all of them.

Right now we just have a bunch of well meaning people who want "change" but have no idea what it is. What's considered a victory? A new tax on banks, a stop of budget cuts?

I suspect all that will happen is over the next couple of weeks, the press will get bored, the weather will get wetter & colder and everyone will slowly get bored and shuffle off home.

It seems that the protest is growing, media reporting this morning that there are now 180 tents.

St Paul's now regretting their decision to ask police to allow the protestors to settle though...they have had to close the profitable parts of the cathedral (gift shop, cafe) and the camp is now threatening the main entrance, so they have asked them to move on.

Intersting interview with one of the Tea Party's founders, who says Occupy Wall Street is doing the right thing by not formalising demands. Interesting video interview as well.

rt.com/usa/news/tea-occupy-denninger-wall-819/

So, it's not enough just to moan about what's wrong without offering some viable alternatives (I think anyway).

Thanks hardboiledpossum. I think you're right actually, but the lack of direction or a clear consensus doesn't inspire confidence. If they can't agree on important stuff like this, how are they going to scale up their ideology to national or global level (again I assume that's what the aim is)?

There's also been grumbling about media misrepresentation, but here they had a golden opportunity to impress and convince, and failed to do so IMO.

Disputandum I didn't watch it but I think the point is that they are all dissatisfied with the current system and the unfairness in how the wealth is distributed. They haven't agreed on what they would like to change and how but they are trying to be part of the solution. They hold two meetings a day to discuss these things and are working on the answers! Hopefully they will get there but it is a slow process especially when they are trying to agree on things democratically.

I have tried and failedmany times to post the results of the poll 'Do you support the Occupy London protest. Result :88.9% voted Yes.

I was looking forward to the debate, but feel disappointed now; they don't make a very good case at all. They were too busy chatting with each other to answer any of the trickier questions, and still don't seem to know what exactly they are calling for or campaigning against. Every time I see a protestor interviewed, they say something different. I suppose I just wanted to know what they want to replace the current system, and how they intend to achieve it.

Also, it's ironic that they are doing their shopping in tesco - and accepting food from m&s - if they are after overthrowing the corporate overlords I think (if indeed that is what they want, hard to tell).

Suits you, actually.

glasnost Of course it will be ignored as much as poss, but there are marches going through soon (fees & cuts? on 9th Nov, Fawcett Soc 'cutting women out' 19th, then the big one on N30) so maybe it'll get bigger from them? You're not a spy, then?

It's not shrinking it has been growing numbers. I think there were around 200 tents last night up from about 70 the first night. They are having regular meetings to establish some clear objectives but it is a democratic process and takes time. They have even set up a library and will be holding their first book group tonight!

As no-one is reporting on it, it's hard to verify figures. I saw an account it was down to 200, and shrinking.

Whatever the aims of the groups therein, they do not seem to be getting them across to any audience nor are they garnering any momentum.

The "movement" probably looks quite different outside UK, especially in places where there have been significantly larger (or growing) events. But it's just not breaking the surface here.

It's neither - though it is often misattributed to Gandhi (but no record of him actually saying it exists).

But this does: "And, my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement. First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America."

General Executive Board Report and Proceedings of the Biennial Convention, Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America, 1914.

I don't think it's so catchy in its full form, and the predictions for monuments never came to pass.

actually that quote earlier is by Tony Benn, not Gandhi.